Episode #8 - Lisa Bragg - The Art of Purposeful Self-Promotion: Being a Signal Through the Noise

Show Notes

Key Topics Covered:

• Understanding why self-promotion is crucial, especially for consultants.
  
  
• Learning how to share your successes without sounding boastful.
  
  
• Discovering practical tips on transforming discomfort into effective self-advocacy.

View the episode chapter links for the full list of topics that were discussed.

Notable Quotes:

• “You can't sell a secret... Everyone needs to build social currency.”
  
  
• “Waiting for others to notice you is not a good marketing strategy.”
  
  
• “ Self promotion is also being about connecting and giving recognition to others... anybody who's inspired you, letting them know that that is just such a gift that you can give them. And that in return, it helps everyone, It helps yourself, it helps them... give more to the world than we take from it... not to act entitled and not to have the purpose of whatever we share to be to dim or blow out other people's light.”

Links and Resources:

• Lisa Bragg | https://www.lisabragg.com/
• Lisa’s Book: Bragging Rights: How to Talk about Your Work Using Purposeful Self-Promotion (https://www.lisabragg.com/book)

Listener Interaction: Have questions or topics you'd like us to cover in future episodes and/or want to share an anonymous consulting story? Submit your questions and stories here: https://bit.ly/uxconsultants-question-story

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Lisa Bragg

Author, Speaker and Advisor
Lisa Bragg Consulting

Transcript

Kyle Soucy: Welcome to the UX consultants lounge. I'm Kyle Soucy, founder of usable interface an independent UX research consultancy. You can find out more about my work and the services I offer at my website, usable interface. com. I'll be your host here at the lounge where I'll be providing a place for UX consultants to gather, share stories, and learn more from one another. 

Kyle Soucy: Oh boy. Do I have a treat for all of you today! I decided to do something a little different for this episode. Rather than interview another UX consultant, I invited someone to the lounge outside of our industry that I think we all can learn a great deal from. My guest today is Lisa Bragg. She is the author of the book, Bragging Rights, how to talk about your work using purposeful self promotion.

Now, if you've listened to any of the other episodes in this podcast, you've probably heard me mention more than once how much I struggle with self promotion.

Sharing my accomplishments is something I've never felt comfortable with. I always fear that I'm saying the wrong thing or worse that I'm coming off as arrogant, cocky, or just pretentious. I never want to be that person, So instead, I sometimes don't share at all. Which, after reading Lisa's book, I realized not only hurts my business, but it also does a disservice to my network and prospective clients. You know, after talking to some other consultants, I know I'm not alone with this issue. So I thought, why not invite an actual expert in the art of self promotion to the lounge to give us some advice?

 In this interview, Lisa and I talk more in depth about Why being humble and not sharing your accomplishments is a disservice, as I mentioned, but I wanted to share a small example of this with you. Last week I wrote an article and I put off writing it for a very long time and I did this out of fear.

I was afraid my opinions weren't novel or that people wouldn't agree with them. It's always a bit scary for me to put myself out there. It's honestly a miracle I actually have a podcast.

Um, and it took a nudge from a colleague for me to finally do it. So once I went through the hard work of writing this article, I had the even harder job of of telling people about it and promoting it. For me, this is always harder than writing the damn thing. Don't get me wrong, I was excited to finally get it out there, but I'm afraid that my self-promotion will be viewed as annoying or, as Lisa Bragg states, just adding to the noise that's already out there.

I finally shared it and I also reached out to a few people that I cited in my article to let them know how helpful their work was. The response from one of these folks was pretty special. They mentioned how honored they were to know that their work was helpful and to be cited in the article. And they also mentioned that they were working on another article that very same day that my message came in, but felt like quitting.

Because it seemed like no one ever reads what they write. It turns out my message gave them hope and got them to reconsider quitting.

It was really a circuitous moment for me. I realized that by writing my article, it brings more exposure to other people that I've cited who have helped me. It really hit home to me how much we're all connected and that we all need each other to share our work and let each other know what that work means to us. It's how we encourage learning and foster growth. Anyway, it was a bit of an aha moment for me that I thought was cool and I just wanted to share since it really is a perfect example of what this episode is all about. If the thought of self promotion is icky for you, you'll be comforted to learn that a lot of it involves practicing gratitude, which was a real relief for me because I'm definitely one of those people that felt like it was icky.

As I mentioned, Lisa will talk more about this, uh, we also covered the cultural biases with self promotion, how to accept a compliment without self deprecation. Spoiler, it involves wiggling your toes. Yes, I'm being serious. We also discussed dealing with tall poppy syndrome. That's when people want to cut down a person who stands out as a high achiever. Understanding that your network cares about you and actually wants to know about your successes.

Dealing with imposter syndrome, how fear of being a hundred percent correct all the time holds us back, how to handle negative feedback. And lastly, defining your three pillars that carry your vision and point of view to make sure you're self promoting with purpose and providing real value for your audience. So, we discussed a lot in this interview, but there's so much more covered in Lisa's book.

I found her exercises in the book to be very helpful, so if you're interested in picking it up, the link is in the show notes. Let me tell you a little bit more about Lisa before we get to the interview. She has devoted her life to helping people be seen and heard through sharing their value with the world.

She's a popular speaker and strategic advisor. She provides consulting services and conducts workshops for companies of all sizes. Lisa is a former TV news anchor, reporter, videographer, and show host.

So let's get to the interview. Please enjoy Lisa Bragg.

Hi, Lisa. Welcome to the UX consultants lounge. I am so glad you are here.

Lisa Bragg: Hi, Kyle. Welcome. Hi. Nice to hear from everyone, too.

Kyle Soucy: I just have to start by telling you how thankful I am that you could take the time to be my guest today on the show. When I was reading your book, I felt like you were speaking directly to me. I've always struggled so much with, Feeling uncomfortable, with self promotion. And the feeling of ickiness for me whenever I try to share an accomplishment is real.

And your book helped me to reframe it and understand how necessary it is. And that it doesn't have to be icky. Within this community of UX consultants, I know I'm not alone in struggling with self promotion, and I thought it would be a great gift to all of us to have you on the show to share some of your wisdom.

Lisa Bragg: Happy to be here. And it's funny how the word icky comes up over and over again. It came up in my international research. It comes up in my own mind. And it's so funny. So we can try to take away some of that ickiness that we feel. So we all feel, you know, how we should feel is strong and having more courage from it and maybe some more confidence to go get those clients that we already deserve.

Why self promotion is so important, especially for consultants.

Kyle Soucy: Yeah, the second guessing, oh man, like after you finally commit to doing it, and then you're like, Oh, did I do it right? And it is, it's icky. There's no better word for it, I don't think, at least for me personally. but I'd love it if you could, start by having you explain why self promotion is so important, especially for consultants.

Lisa Bragg: Yeah, it's self promotion, especially nowadays. It's getting louder and louder out there and the challenges we're so used to just saying, Oh, our work will speak for itself. Aren't we so great? Someone's going to talk about us and sing our praises. But the reality is, everyone is so busy trying to keep themselves going, trying to, you know, Keep the people knowing what they're doing, that they're too busy.

And so while they love you, they think you did a great job. They're not going to sing your praises. And maybe people did that a long time ago. I know they did, but it's just too loud now. So I think that's part of it. And I'm always calling for people not to be part of the noise that's out there, but to be a signal.

So letting people know with clarity, intention, purpose, what you're about and why. And then that helps those people who do have some capacity to talk about you. To then be able to talk about you. So, I think, why didn't I start talking about myself more 20 years ago? But it's that thing, you know, best day to plant a tree, was 20 years ago.

Other best day is today. So starting today, starting on some small steps to get yourself out there. And it's not an extrovert's game. I know a lot of people in UX consultants, you are, you're an ambivert, most likely you're a little bit of both, but some days even when you don't have that energy, it's not about being out there and being the loudest, it's really that strategic intention and purposeful way that we can go about this so we can feel good and then really let the clients know who we are meant to serve, that we're out there instead of them going down to some mediocre consultancy that's just maybe a little bit louder than we are.

Kyle Soucy: I, I love that point that you don't have to be loud because I'm not comfortable personally being loud. And , it's a bit exhausting, feeling like it's never enough, that everybody's doing it, and I love how you said you just, you don't want to be part of the noise, you want to be contributing something of value.

Avoiding self-deprecation when receiving a compliment

Lisa Bragg: I think even when somebody gives you a compliment, so off the top, you said, you know, you read my book and it got in your head and your heart and hearing that I'm so quick to start self deprecating. I think that's another thing that we do so quickly is self deprecation where we'll put ourselves down and start listing the laundry list of things that we know in the background.

aren't going right. And so holding ourselves to say no, we want to make sure that we're not going that self deprecation route, that we're standing in compliments, standing in our successes and owning it and then allowing people to know about our successes that way instead of starting the self deprecation route.

We're so quick on self deprecation. It's it's unbelievable. When I listen to people and you give a compliment next time you give a compliment, listen if they go to the self deprecation route and if they do, Give them my book.

Kyle Soucy: talk about that a little bit, with self deprecation, and you said yourself, you were hearing the compliment, and you immediately in your head started to go there, what do you do to stop yourself from, you know, batting that compliment away? Okay.

Lisa Bragg: Can I tell you it's actually really strange. Ha ha ha ha I actually, if I'm starting to feel like I'm going to go down that self deprecation route or deny a compliment, which so many of us do. I sometimes will wiggle my toes to ground myself to remind myself, even if I'm sitting, I'll wiggle my toes.

Don't do it. And that's a thing for sales, too. Why am I talking right? So wait, don't talk. Wiggle your toes. You know, instead of blurting something out, if you know it should be a process, wiggle your toes and it grounds you from saying things that maybe you shouldn't be saying. So when somebody gives me a compliment and I'm starting to feel that.

That self deprecation monster coming up. I ground myself, self wiggle my toes. So it's a, it's a strange trick. But, you know, some people will do tapping to stop them from habits. But it's something that you have to just remember. Okay, stop. You know, zip it. Don't say anything after someone gives you a compliment.

The only thing you should be saying is, Thank you. And that's it. Nothing else. And it's so quick to start the laundry list. So, you know, I think a lot of us are culturally, it's a cultural thing. We want to, we don't want you to think that we're better, that we're talking about ourselves too much, and so we want to lessen ourselves.

But that's not what people are looking for. They really want you to know your stuff. You are the expert, or you're the visionary, you're the thought leader. So when you're self deprecating, you're lowering yourself. And, you know, the challenge is when people self deprecate, Okay. Their audience. So your client will start to believe those negative things you say.

Humans have a tendency to a negative negativity bias. So we're hearing those negative things. We will say, Oh, well she knows herself. So if she doesn't think she's that great after I told her those things, then okay. Huh. So she's not that great. Oops. Maybe I'll go to somebody else down the hall. So wiggle your toes.

Kyle Soucy: That makes so much sense. The negativity bias, I can totally see how that you could be swaying them in a way you don't want to. And the wiggle your toes, that's such a great trick. I think giving yourself something physical to do that, that might work for me. I could see that, because you physically almost have to stop yourself from going down that path.

The myth of merit-based recognition

Kyle Soucy: But you mentioned too, Good work, we all want to be recognized for it and almost expect to be, without having to ask for it. And I love how in your book you mentioned how you, I think rightfully disagreed with Adam Grant's view about, you know, good work speaks for itself. And sadly, I don't think it does.

Lisa Bragg: You know, again, when we were in small communities, our kin would talk about us and say, Hey, you know what, Kyle should really be doing this. She's awesome at it. And don't let Lisa anywhere near that. But we don't have that anymore. And we're also in a world where people are talking a lot about merit and merit works when you're close to success when you're close to those people of power.

If you're not close to those clients that you want or those opportunities you want, how do you get there? How do you let them know about it? And so when Adam Grant saying these things that, you know, bragging violates modesty norms, and if you're that good, your work would speak for itself or something like that.

It's such a challenging. things cause then How can my work be that loud that it's going to speak for itself? When we're in a world where there's so much going on with attention. We have our own fires to put out and our own clients to serve. So that's where we really do. It's about self advocacy. We have to be able to tell our own stories so that other people will be able to tell our stories on our behalf.

And of course, we want to help other people along the way and hopefully they'll turn into brand ambassadors for us, but to wait for other people to, acknowledge your work. I think that's just not a mindset that you can have in this competitive world we live in today.

Kyle Soucy: Yeah, you put it perfectly. I definitely highlighted that because it spoke to me as a consultant, that you can't sell a secret that everyone needs to build social currency. And then you also said, waiting for others to notice you is not a good marketing strategy. And I just immediately bowed my head like, yep, that's exactly what I'm doing.

Lisa Bragg: But you know, Kyle, I do it sometimes too. So I'm out here, I do all these things, and then I retreat. And then sometimes it's like, well, should I give up? I'm not doing the things. But you have to keep coming back, and it's a practice. And so that's why I love hearing my book is highlighted, dog eared, and kept in a special place because you have to come back to the work, and you have to keep trying because so many of us in consulting work, we get so busy in doing the work that we're not out there talking about all the great.

Our work is doing in the world. So we have to come back to it. Hopefully we get into a practice of it, but it's that back and forth of it. So, sometimes you will be out there and you'll think, is this too much? Is it too much? The Lisa show, the Kyle show, but that's very self centered.

People are not paying enough attention. They're just not, because they're doing their own thing. And so you could go away, be off all the social media, not contact people for a little while, and still come back to it, and they'll be like, Oh, wasn't, didn't I just see this yesterday, or talk to you yesterday?

Because we have that bias in ourselves, thinking that, we're center stage. So, but other people don't have that. And so that's where, you can put the same social media post out again and again and again and have different comments on it and people likely actually won't even notice.

So maybe the same post every quarter or every time this year, the next year, put it out every time in March, every time in February, they're not going to notice. Only you will know.

Kyle Soucy: And that is something, talked with two episodes ago with Erica and Mike Montero, they mentioned the importance of having to repeat yourself online. And I was like, Ooh, that immediately made me cringe. I'm so afraid to do that. And I know you have to.

I, I do. Get it, but something about it. I don't like you mentioned before I want to be part of the noise But recognizing that we can't just assume that you put one thing out there that it's seen in that moment It could be very much lost in that moment.

Lisa Bragg: Totally lost. And I think a lot of people are like me, anyone on this call, you're probably thinking, I have to put something new out there, another idea so they can see how smart I am and how, how forward thinking I am and how I'm going to really serve them. And so we think, Oh, I have to put something new out.

Yes. And keep to those messages, those pillars that you've built to say, Oh, my body of work really means this. And so you want to not just constantly go for the new shiny thing, but also reinforce what your values are, what your pillars are. So your clients know. How to use you and I think that's part of it for it's like always something new.

No, repeat, repeat, repeat and then add a little bit of new. When we're always adding new to it takes a lot more energy and so conserving energy, not making this so tiresome for yourself, it's another job that you don't need to have.

Reframing self promotion as "How am I of service to others?"

Kyle Soucy: Yes. Yeah, and When we were talking about What Adam Grant said about how good work speaks for itself and Really in a perfect world, right? Maybe if we were all equal and we all treated ourselves equally then yeah, but You mentioned how? Meritocracy, it sounds like on the surface that it should work, People get success or power because of their abilities not because of money or social position But that's only works if you're in that elite group, but typically with the world that we live in now, you have to be lucky enough to be in the group to be recognized.

Lisa Bragg: Yeah, that's the reality of it. If you're not already, how are they going to know? They're not mind readers. I interviewed a panel from Japan and the way they get jobs. There is that your leader is supposed to read your mind it's called the Sura.

And a lot of Western we're very much individualistic here. We're not as collectivist. So maybe they can they it works over there. But for our area, like you have to let people know we're not good mind readers over here at all. So it's letting people know how you are of service. And we think that they're just gonna find I would love it if people found me on my tiny piece of the Internet.

But they're not. They're not unless I'm out there talking about what I'm doing and how I am of service. And when we feel that Bragging and self promotion is icky. We have to reframe it to think of it is how I am of service. And so that's the reframe. It's being of service to other people. And that lessens that, okay, I'm going to talk about myself.

It's how I am of service. And I know with Adam Grant and the social norms, we have been conditioned to not talk about our successes. And to hold back that is ideal, but that's not the reality, and it's interesting to you once you hit. Like, for politicians or celebrities, we all talk about them over and over and over again.

And Adam Grant, for example, he talks about himself quite a bit and lets you know how many books he's sold and all of his accolades. So it's like just, there's a disconnect in messages. The message is for you, but not for him. So that doesn't apply. So I don't really get it, and I asked him, but just says it's too risky for people, especially women and minorities to talk about their successes because of past studies and past research.

So it was a really gift that he said that, because then I went to really look in depth about what the research said, and most of the research was done on university students, American university students and very small cohorts. So we're basing a lot of this information on how. Bragging and self promotion might be bad for you based on small, groups of people.

And I just think that, it might be hard to do because we're so conditioned to talk about other people, but you have to do it. So how do we take off that negativity and make it a positive thing? And the reframe is to, to be of service to other people.

Kyle Soucy: Yeah, and you mentioned, Japan and I loved how you talked about cultural norms in your book and how it's different, bragging is viewed differently, and I think with the Japanese it was bragging through writing instead of vocally, and I could, I can see that. I can see how I'm much more brave eventually if I can get a social post out there to say, to write it than to actually say that.

Lisa Bragg: Yeah, I think it's just for them. They're just starting to get to it where we're much further along. But I think one of the big biggest tips is is that it's context. So when you're talking to other consultants and you're saying you did this and you landed this client, that's context. So if they're also successful, they don't see it as.

The real definition of bragging.

Lisa Bragg: As a bragging as a negative. So, I should probably define what bragging is just so we're all on the same page because, um, in that research, they didn't define what bragging meant. And so bragging means to talk about one's success with pride. And my reframe is that pride also means justified self love.

So you deserve to talk about those successes. And then self aggrandizement. That's that's that ickiness that we get confused. And back in my broadcasting days, that would be a 50 dollar word. So it was, I mean, 5 word. So 50 now, but self aggrandizement. That's that puffery, that ickiness that I'm better than you, that only one person can win.

That's what we missed. We missed the mark and think that bragging is that and it's different. So that's something to consider When you're looking at the word brag and bragging and it is my last name. It has been so I have

Kyle Soucy: Which is so

Lisa Bragg: Definitely. Yeah, so I've studied the word in its meaning and it used to mean shine shimmer and bravery in multiple languages And so I think it's as we went into this factory system that we started to want to be part of a cog in the machine, and I definitely don't want us to be cogs in any machine now.

So we don't want to just put our heads down, do good work, and eventually someone will notice you type of thing because it's just not going to happen for us. And so that's where we take our brag that thing we want to talk about our success, and we turn it into self promotion. And self promotion can be anything that you want.

It's doing this podcast. It's telling someone about this podcast as a listener. It's writing a review for this podcast. It's picking up the phone and calling a client or potential client or someone who Hey, who do you know that might need this service? That's all self promotion. So it's not all about writing that massive LinkedIn article or getting published or being in the news.

It's any small tactic that you can take. So self promotion, it are the tactics that you put your brag out into the world. How do we let people know that we're awesome? And in the book, I talk about how somebody put a billboard up in Times Square and it was really just meant for one person, like that's how people do.

You can do something that's one person. So instead of thinking that we have to broadcast to everyone. Narrow cast. Find that one person or 20 people that you really need to talk to and think about your message for them at all times.

 Self promotion includes connecting and giving recognition to others

Kyle Soucy: I love that. And you mentioned, about self promotion also being about connecting and, and giving recognition to others. And I think, that we forget that too, that, anybody who's inspired you, letting them know that that is just such a gift that you can give them. And that in return, it helps everyone, It helps yourself, it helps them, I think you put it as, give more to the world than we take from it. And I, I thought that was beautiful, just not to act entitled and not to have the purpose of whatever we share to be to, to dim or blow out other people's light.

That was beautiful.

Lisa Bragg: Oh, thank you. I'm wiggling my toes right now. But you know what? The reality is we're all here on the shoulders of giants. People have come before us and done great hard things. And we will continue to do great hard things.

Practice "braggitude" (i.e bragging with gratitude)

Lisa Bragg: So if you want to lessen that feeling of ickiness. Acknowledge other people. And I wish, I wish, wish, wish I could take credit for this, but, a research group made up the word. It's braggitude. So have your brag, that thing you want to say, hey, I did this great thing in the world, and I'm thankful for, so hey, I'm on this great podcast, look at me, and I'm thankful for Kyle for having me on, like, it's that simple, so whatever it is, is a brag, I did this thing, and I'm thankful for all the people that helped me get there, and that's as simple when you win an award, never say you're humble about it, cause that, lowers the award to that.

All those people who didn't win or the judges or the quality of the award. When we're humbled, we think we're less than something and that diminishes so many things. So, and it really is actually irking a lot of people. When you say you're humbled to do this, you can have humility, of course, but to say I'm less than I shouldn't have received it.

Oh, my goodness. Why would they choose me? That kind of stuff. It diminishes. It's so many people around you and it diminishes the award or the client for choosing you. Oh, I wouldn't know why they chose me. Oh my goodness. And it's also, it's turning into a humble brag, which is also a no, no. So humble brag is where you have a brag plus a complaint.

Oh, the traffic in New York is so bad, especially in my Lamborghini, like that kind of thing. Oh my goodness. So out of touch, but that's, that's what a humble brag is. So don't diminish your brag, stand in your brag, be powerful in it. And then stop talking. Yeah.

Kyle Soucy: it makes so much sense and, you know, not to cancel a brag or add a qualifier. You gave the example of, I'm not trying to brag, but, and then doing it,

Lisa Bragg: but you know what? People won't call it out as something negative. If you just stand in it and if they do see it's negative or feel like it's negative. What's with them? I think you get into tricky issues when you're talking a lot about wealth, especially nowadays. So if you're putting Lamborghinis or fancy things on, that's when people start to feel like, uh, but if you give the example in the book where.

This woman, she helps people with super yachts. And so when the people who have super yachts are talking to each other, it's different than when they're talking to people who are outside the super yacht community. And so it's context matters so much knowing who your audience is and how you're meant to serve. That's really a big part of how you set up a brag and help it land successfully. But if it doesn't, and we can't worry about, is this going to land with them?

We have to know our audience and make sure that it has good context. Like I'm saying this because there's intention, but we can't worry too much about how it lands because otherwise we'll never do it.

Kyle Soucy: Yeah.

Lisa Bragg: so that's where we have to start taking baby steps into feeling more and more comfortable with bragging and self promotion.

Retweeting compliments

Kyle Soucy: You know, I want to do something a little different here. What I want to do is share with you,, what I think is a perfect example of something super icky. And I'm very curious to know if you feel the same way or if I perhaps have, maybe a limited view of what I should be doing and, accepting as okay in our society.

But this is something that. It turned me off immediately in our industry that happens, or it used to happen a lot more often than it happens now, but let me just set the, context here. Back when Twitter was Twitter, before it became X and also before Twitter got. toxic. I think before it died, at least for our industry, there was design Twitter, which was a mess.

but before it became toxic, the UX community really thrived there to where we connected and we were able to self promote. We were able to learn about each other, our accomplishments, our thoughts, our feelings on things. And it was just, it was a good place. but there was a common practice that I personally could not stand.

And that was, Retweeting a compliment there were a few really bad offenders that would just retweet without even adding a comment And they would do it repeatedly if they spoke at a conference in the morning They would spend the afternoon retweeting every tweet that mentioned them and how great they were and I gotta say That's nauseating to me.

And I, I would sit there, you know, this is really like 18 years ago, and I thought, I just never want to be that person. because most people, right, they don't brag this way in the real world. They don't announce with a megaphone that someone else thinks they're brilliant. But I would love a reality check from you as someone who is an expert on this.

is that the right way to be looking at that? Or should I, Possibly soften my view on it or

Lisa Bragg: Good one. Very sure. For sure. a couple things. So first of all, I would say, why are you paying that much attention to them? So back on you. So what is it about you that is, it's connecting and you're thinking, Oh my goodness, like this is too much that. So that's off and on the person who's watching and thinking that.

So what is it about it for you? Honestly, not, you don't have to answer it here, but why were you feeling that? Is it because It was too much. It was something you didn't have, what is it about your own self that you felt that way?

Kyle Soucy: I can absolutely answer. I think from when I was young It was exactly what you painted in the book, which again, I it felt like it was written for me It's like I believed at a young age, you'd be a good girl You put your head down you do good work and that people would recognize you and I had that deep rooted fear of judgment But I look at those retweets and I, I think oh my goodness, you're being so boastful, self aggrandizing, you know, just insufferable.

And it's, it goes against everything that I don't know if I was taught it or if I just felt it just from the time that I could remember that you're just not supposed to be.

Lisa Bragg: That's exactly it. We're taught that. But that person was saying, I'm not gonna live by that. They know that Twitter, especially back in the day, it was a fast moving subway. And so if you didn't put things out, people were on and off so fast. So it wasn't like we were lingering to read anything. So, that person was dropping things in as they went, knowing that their audience probably wasn't paying that much attention And , well, people were. And so what does the audience respond to? But there are ways to do what he did. I'm going to just assume it was a guy, but there are things to do what he did, but do it over time and do it in a way that has a little bit more of an elevated feel.

But when you see someone congratulating themselves and being successful, understand what it's doing. First of all, to yourself, like why are you reacting this way and what does it matter? And then that's how you can start to understand, okay, well, I don't want to do that, but then what can I do? Because is that person getting ahead?

Are they doing bigger things because of that? Because people can see him as a success because success begets success. When people see that you're successful, and I'm not saying go out there and fake being successful, but when they can see that you've already worked these great clients, you're winning awards, they want to be closer to that.

And so we do have to put it out there. But that's where, Twitter, it's where it is now. But when you see people. Constantly putting out the same message. Then you wonder, well do they have anything else to talk about? that's a bit of a problem. So there's a pattern that we can do for these things.

So we can talk about the other winners. And say, look who else. Cause when you talk about other people winning the same awards. Then you put yourself in a peer group of these excellent people. But you're doing it in a way that's more nuanced. So you're congratulating other people saying. They won this award too.

So you want to put you can put them up in front. I usually want to put yourself because so many of us are so limited on our bragging and self promotion. I usually say put yourself number one. But if you are really good at it, put yourself number two. So you congratulate someone else. You know who won this award.

And then add yourself in. So for you, I definitely say put yourself first and say, Hey, here are the other people that are awesome that won the award. But to repeat it over and over again, I think that person was also maybe doing a just spray it kind of thing. So I would wonder what their other social media was about.

But you can often go hand in hand with congratulating other people, thanking the judges. Having that braggatude is a better way to go about it than just really. Spraying your whole feed with the same message. I think it gets to be crass at the end that it's too much of one message. Mix it up.

Come back to it in a month or two. things like that instead of just over and over again about your award.

I hope that's helpful, but there's some unpacking to do there.

Practicing  freudenfreude (i.e. being happy for someone else's joy or success)

Kyle Soucy: It is, I'm going to probably get the pronunciation wrong, but, schadenfreude, you know, taking pleasure in someone else's misfortune. You talked about freudenfreude, which I actually didn't even know was a thing, being happy for someone else's joy or success.

And I want to be, but a person like that makes it so darn hard to be because you're beating us over the head with it, you know? And I think because I so badly don't want to be that person, I don't do anything, which is not good either, because we miss an opportunity to, like you said, to also thank others and recognize others in that.

Lisa Bragg: And people want to see your success, Kyle. They want to see what you're up to. So, there's a happy medium between bombarding a feed with it and then taking some more strategic and really purposeful steps. You already know what you don't want to be. That's the extreme of it all. You don't have to do all those things, but you have to do some things. So, what are the things that you want to do? And especially if you're putting it out on social media, what are those things that you really do want to have, you know, that people will see that people will connect with in a deeper way.

But then I also challenged to say, what are you doing behind the scenes? So we have a social media piece that people will connect to, but are we going back and seeing who else? That we can connect with that will brag to that doesn't have to be so overt and so open on the social media channels because there's a lot of ways to do it.

That's not about social media. So that's my key to that is if the social media piece is just too icky. Don't start there.

Kyle Soucy: Okay,

Lisa Bragg: with people that you know, letting them again. You went back to a great suggestion is giving someone a compliment. Start with that. And then adding in, or I'm really thankful for this is what's happened and it happened because of you, right?

So those kind of small steps into it instead of, you know, bombarding your feed with how awesome you are. Because there's also the tall poppy where, so the tall poppy is,term from Australia. It's in the UK. It's, it's growing widely now where people understand that there's so many of us who are, Awesome and doing great things and we grow and maybe we're above our peers and so people like to lob off the head.

So a tall poppy, poppies, they don't want them to grow in uniform. Anything that's above it, they take the top off of it. So it's like kind of the tallest nail gets hammered down. There's several different frames. Longest blade of grass is another one gets mowed first, those kind of things.

But We can't dim our light waiting for other people to expect them to see us if we're not giving them something to go on. So, you know, you can write a little email to somebody saying, I want to let you know I did this. I had a friend actually, she was just on the show, Taylor Swift Effect. She wrote this great email to everyone she knew and just saying, I'm going to be on this NBC show for Taylor Swift about the Swift Effect.

Cause she took all these pictures of Taylor Swift. And Jasmeet sent this email saying, I'm really excited about it. I'm and she doesn't do it all the time. I think this is only twice that I've ever received any kind of this self congratulations email. But it's also something that I wanted to share in. I wanted to see her joy and her excitement in what she was doing.

And then also, how can I champion her? Because I care about her. And that's the thing. If you care about someone, they want to know that people are really offended. That's what the research found is that. People are offended if they find out after the fact about something that you were, you had a success in that you didn't brag about and they find out later, people are offended by that.

And so think of it that way. I don't want to offend people. So if my friend Jasmeet hadn't told me that she was on NBC and at a primetime show and it was a big feature and I found out later, like, why didn't you tell me? One, I wanted to watch it because it was interesting. Two, I want to cheer my friends on in their successes.

And also, she's a professional friend. So, what opportunities could come to her that I could help her with that will then help me in some way? Because there is definitely the halo effect on so many things we do. You know, you help me, I help you. That's part of meritocracy. That's how it starts to move faster.

So, if I know about how you are successful, then I can help you. And so Jasmine, she sent it out saying this is coming up and then she said, Hey, if you missed it, here's the link. I have it up for just a little while before, the NBC people come after me. But she gave that opportunity and it was beautiful to see it.

So just small things that people do really want to share in your success. It's called Shoi. And I did not make that up either, but Shoi, we want to share in other people's joy. I think especially now there's so much. negativity, heavy news, having some shoi, sharing those good things in your life, sharing, putting the spotlight on other people.

That's what really makes a difference right now. And you'll actually stand out because of how noisy it is with negativity.

Sharing milestones to help avoid  self aggrandizement

Kyle Soucy: know, that reminds me that you made a great point too in your book about how, bringing people along for the journey, it doesn't have to be that end moment when you finally, Finish the book or whatever it is you're doing, cause I know, speaking for myself, that can hold me back, too, at times, not wanting to share the work in progress, and I didn't really get that, that the milestones are just as important, and it makes, it makes the end that much better when people, you've taken people along the journey with you.

Lisa Bragg: It does. And that also lessens that idea of self aggrandizement because if all of a sudden you show up in your private plane, but they never saw the work that you did to get the private plane, that's the disconnect that people feel. And then that's when we start to go into self aggrandizement. But when they've seen that you put the hours in and did the things and, you know, got your pilot's license and then got enough money to buy a plane, all those things, then It feels in context.

And then we want to celebrate you. But context is really important. So the audience that you're with, maybe they all have private planes. Maybe they all work that hard. But what is it that you're trying to tell them? And why? How does it help your cause instead? If you've ever gone to a playground, you'll hear that mother or father that talks about little Johnny and all the things, the laundry list of his accomplishments, all the milestones he made.

And he's in this percentile. You don't want to be that person. You want to be really strategic about. What you're bragging about, and why, and how you're putting it out into the world. So I think that's where your Twitter person, the, the reference you gave, he wasn't being very strategic about it and having intention behind what he was doing.

And so that's what I want everyone to do is be strategic and have intention and don't be like those school yard, playground parents just talking, rhyming off all the lists of things. It's what's the point? Why is this important to my life? You know, what is it about your audience? And that's what UX people are always about.

It's like, what's my audience really need? What do I need to let them know? But what do they need to hear? And, you know, we always want to market to where we want to go. We have these solid reputations, these great things in the past that we've done. We need to signal to our audiences where we're going next so that they'll be able to either help us along our journey a lot faster or refer us to the next client.

They'll be able to really move us forward further, faster, instead of waiting just on having that next certificate or worrying about a reputation.

Dealing with imposter syndrome

Kyle Soucy: Yeah, that's a great point. The next certificate that happens in our industry to where we feel there's this,feeling that we are, pretending, imposter syndrome, where, you know, if we just get one more certification, if we just get one more degree, or a PhD, or whatever, then we'll be worthy.

Then we will, achieve whatever. And of course, a lot of us realize that that's not the case. so it gets to be a little bit of a trap, a hamster wheel.

Lisa Bragg: Totally a hamster wheel. That's exactly it. Because one, then you have to get another. And you know why? It's because you're already one of those people that is smart. You are innovative.

You're thinking ahead. You are a visionary, most likely for sure, an expert, a leader, definitely. But you have all these things. And so You, achieve something and then you look ahead and you're like, Oh, well, I'm changing the goalpost over there. And so we never get that goalpost. It's, it's like an S curve.

It's okay, I think I know what I'm doing. Then I'm going to change course. I'm going to do something else. I don't know what I'm doing. And then I, Oh, I'm going to get, I'm going to master this and understand it. Then I'm going to jump again. Like we just, once we go through this like crazy S curve of feelings, this rollercoaster, Then we jump to the next thing.

And, you know, back in our parents or great grandparents day, they would have the same job for 30 or 40 years. And so they didn't feel this way or things were changing so slowly. The incremental changes were in our day and age were the first. no one's done this before. I don't have anyone to ask. I don't have that reference except for that new reference.

And so we feel that I call it imposter experience because it's an experience we have from time to time, especially as we're stretching or doing something new. And it's so much in our generation because we're constantly doing new things and generation. I mean, in this time and place that we're in, we're all doing new things.

We've gone through, you know, we're in the third industrial revolution for so long. Yeah. Then the fourth and we're in the fifth, like we don't even know where we are because things are moving so fast. So AI, you know, you wake up and there's a new AI model that's doing amazing things.

So when you feel like you're an imposter, again, wiggle your toes, but know that everyone else around you is in the exact same experience. And if they don't articulate it, it's because they haven't. Realize that they should and they just hold it in so everyone else is in the same boat that they're feeling this imposter experience because it's all new to all of us all the time now.

Kyle Soucy: Yeah, you're not alone.

Lisa Bragg: You're not alone and if anyone, I don't have that, then you're not stretching yourself. I would challenge like if you don't feel like you're an imposter from time to time. Then you're not stretching to know that you are challenging yourself and saying I'm a fish out of water here I don't really know what I'm doing That's okay.

We don't know what we don't know and we have to keep striving to To say it's okay. It's okay Enroll to get those toes going you'll have great toes by the end of this

How worrying about being correct holds us back

Kyle Soucy: That's a really good point and it actually kind of segues nicely into another question I had. because you mentioned how important it is to have a point of view. I think you quoted Seth Godin in your book about, um, Where he said, having a point of view is different from always being correct.

No one is always correct. Hiding because you're not sure merely makes you invisible. And I know I can speak for myself here. I think I say that often in this episode, but I often hold myself back because I'm afraid to say the wrong thing or that I'm making a statement that might not be correct, rather than just sharing an opinion or just my point of view on something.

Lisa Bragg: You know it comes down to risk and regret. So, we're so afraid of risk, but at the end of the day, at the very end of all of our days

It's regret that is worse for us. And so taking the risk in the moment of shame of guilt of all those feelings that we run away from is better to have that than to be at the end of the year and regret that you didn't do those things or worse be at the end of your life and regret that you didn't do it.

 What I tell people do it. This is risky business. It is risky. You're putting yourself out there. And so especially nowadays where it's all online and people can see it is a risk. But taking the risk today will get you some steps forward where then in the future you will regret not having moved forward at all.

So you have to think about what really matters to me. What is my point of view of things? What do I want to say? What do I want to tell the world? And then put it out there. And again, it can be in a very strategic way. So it's something very risky. Make it low stakes at first. So you gain that courage. And don't wait till you're confident because that never happens.

But gain that courage to do that next bigger thing and the next bigger thing. So many people hide their work instead of showing it a little bit messy and saying here, it's not perfect. You know, my hair is not perfect today. My hair makeup is not all done. It's like all those things we wait till perfection happens.

But then the goalpost has moved again and society's changed and something else has happened and then we never get it done. And you know, I think there's something to it when you have an idea and you don't take the risk to put it out there and somebody else puts it out there.

It's like, wait a minute.

That was my idea. I I invented Spanx. You know, like there's so many of us that we're already doing something like that with our homemade pantyhose and things like that. But she took the risk and did all those things. And it's wow, the reward is so worth it. So we just we conflate what the risk is versus regret versus reward.

And so we have to understand where is our risk tolerance. And I want people to have fear plus 10%. So you should be a little bit afraid. It should be a little bit like, I don't know what I'm doing. the butterflies. Get to that edge of that diving board. Put your toes over. Look and do it. And that's, you know, the risk plus ten percent.

Fear plus ten percent.

How to handle negative feedback

Kyle Soucy: I think that, when we do put ourselves out there, and sometimes it's not well received, you know, how should. People handle feedback or criticism when they put themselves out there, and they not get a hater, but they get some negative feedback.

Lisa Bragg: Well, congratulations. You've made it.

Kyle Soucy: Ha ha ha ha ha.

Lisa Bragg: The haters will come. If you are doing successful things, they will come. There are, there are enough people who are like the tall poppy. They want to cut you down because it's something about them. So realize it's about them. It's not about you. It's not about the work that you're doing.

Now, if they're doing something wrong and you get that, well, there you go. But most of us are doing great work and those haters just come along when we started to head into that next level. And they think they should bring us back down to our levels. So I think good on you. Great. Don't spend time on it.

 Only go to the people that you value. I think it was Brene Brown or someone like her that it's like they take a little swear. And those little sticky notes, and then we write the six or seven people that really matter to them, their opinions. And those opinions are the only ones they're going to ask for and care about.

And so if they get the haters, the trolls. Don't worry about it. Ignore it. I let trolls bring me down for so long. I posted something way long ago when the internet was new that was really about how newspapers were gonna die and my background's journalism. And I had, I mistook the word effect with affect and they took me down hardcore, flames, bad and it stopped me from writing and posting for a long time.

Well, what a regret that is. I think I lost so much time from social currency. So building up my self online of doing all these great things because I let that take me down. Such a small thing that nobody even cares about now at all.

So, but you let it hold you back. I'm not worthy. Oh no, I am embarrassed myself in front of my peers. Most people don't even think twice about you when you make a mistake. So, you know, I wish I could tell that young girl to have dusted herself off and get back right into the melee, but I didn't.

But just remembering that now that's a story that other people can learn from is just don't worry what the haters say. Don't get caught up in it. Just take a moment, take a beat cause it's going to hurt. We're not machines. But then move forward and then call a friend if, if it really does hurt, who is going to cheer you on and light you up or pick up my book because I've been told I'm like your cheerleader in your head.

So hopefully I'm doing that for you now, but it's, it's really that we can't stay in it and I talk about in the book, it's a shame. Like we feel shame, just, change shame into guilt. Our human connection, we allow, we feel shame longer than we feel guilt. It's so weird that we do that because I'll get in a shame spiral and I'll stay in that.

So just say no. I have shame because I didn't know the word affect. So I should have looked it up.

Kyle Soucy: Mm hmm.

Lisa Bragg: So I'm guilty of not perfecting my prose. I'm guilty of not checking. But I shouldn't have shame because of that. And I know this is a trivial example, but there's so many things in our lives that it's like that.

So move it into the guilty category, and then I, oh, I can do that. I can accomplish that next time. I know if I do these things, then I'm, check mark, I can accomplish that. Then, whew, it's gone. So move it from the shame bucket to the guilty bucket. Figure out what it was that you could have done, and then check it off your list, because it's done, and next time you're going to rock it.

Kyle Soucy: you know, I, that's a good point. I don't feel like it was a, like a small example at all. Cause it's sometimes those small things that, that really haunt us for a long time, which is crazy, but it does, you know, we get into that. Uh, it's hard to pull ourselves out of that. So that, I think that's such a good point, such a good reminder that we should not live in shame over something so small that happens, and let it hold us back.

 Defining your three pillars that carry your vision and point of view

Kyle Soucy: but in the few minutes we have left, one thing I was curious about, I was wondering if you could, talk a little bit more about what you call defining your three pillars that carry your vision and point of view, and that you should refer to whenever you're self promoting.

Lisa Bragg: Well, because then that takes us away from talking about everything like, what do you want to stand for? And so so many people, they it goes to storytelling. They don't know what stories they should tell. What story should I tell people? And we think we should have just be instantly able to tell a story.

That would be great. But most of us have to know what is my point of view on something? What is what are the pillars that I am going to talk about? And so defining them. So taking so I give this riff tool to people. I say, set a timer. And write down all the things that you think you're qualified to talk about, or that you feel like you should talk about, or tell someone, or teach someone, or have a client call you on these things.

So write them all down. Set a timer. Five minutes. Write all the things down. Let's do three minutes first. So write them all down and then see what's common in there and start to bucket them and then do it again and More and more things will come up So first of all, you're defining what your pillars maybe should be because you can really talk about those things for a while And then you're also starting to develop stories that hey, I had a story about that I should bring that story up.

And so we're doing two things when we start the riff tool. So starting with that Set a timer, write all the things that you can talk about, and then start to say what buckets should these go in, and then what stories are coming out of this. So that's a place to start to say, here's how I define my pillars and my point of view with that.

 Having a point of view is really that I'm going to take a stance on things. I'm not going to just, be vanilla ice cream, which is great, but maybe your vanilla plus You know, cherry sauce or chocolate sauce or whatever it is, or are you desperately going to be rocky road or something really crazy like pistachio?

Like, what are you? And so it seems fun to just use ice cream flavors, but defining yourself allows people to then know how you, what you stand for. And when you own your own narrative, other people then can't assume a narrative of you. I think that's really important that people Know who you are, what you stand for, your mission and vision.

It doesn't have to be a big thing like you help your clients with, but it can be those things that you know what my purpose is. And then I'm going to talk about those things. It makes it less exhausting for yourself. And then your clients know, okay, she really stands for these things. I'm attracted to that.

I do a networking thing all the time for clients. And it's, as simple as introducing yourself. People think, oh, I'm just going to wait for my client, potential client to, to find me. Introduce herself and then I'm going to introduce myself because I'm going to riff off of what she says, because then I'll get her as a client.

Don't do that. So many people know that, but you're not setting yourself up for your own success. You're not sharing your values so that your potential client, she can say, Oh wow, I know these things and I know these other people. I'm not the right fit client for you at all because I don't have the budget for you.

But I know 25 other people that probably would love you because I know what you stand for. Instead of you trying to shape yourself to what she stands for. So that's where it's like, I want people to stand in their ground and own their own stories, own who they are, own their values so that they attract the right fit clients.

 It's all of our, psychographics and things like that. How do we really show people who we are so that they're attracted to us? It makes a lot less work than trying to fit into somebody else's mold.

Kyle Soucy: And I think the authenticity that we're trying to maintain, it helps us do that. Right. It's a good, way to just quickly check in. Does this align with my values, my pillars and then feel good about proceeding with self-promoting, you know, whatever it is we're sharing

Lisa Bragg: And there's so many times where it's like, squirrel, I want to go off and do that. And then I come back to saying, well, does this align with what I'm trying to get out there in the world? Where I'm trying to get to, does this align with that? So I don't have to talk about every world issue or every current affair out there.

I can stick with the things that really matter to me. and I use Jen Harper in the book who has cheekbone beauty and it's an indigenous, makeup company. So she's all about indigenous people. She's about sustainability and, and beauty. So those she has others, but those are big things for her. And so she doesn't have to talk about all the things, but you know, if you tune into her.

She's probably going to talk about those things. She will talk about those things. And so then people know what to expect from you. It's a little bit of a cheat sheet for people too.

Kyle Soucy: Well, Lisa, I am just so grateful again for your time today. I wanted to end with just letting you know what the main message that stuck with me the most, after reading your book that I think helped me reframe the most, was, Humility can be a disservice to you, especially in corporate America.

That hit home for me. Sometimes I think that it's a good thing, you know, to be humble. You would think it would be, but then reading that, I was like, this isn't serving me. That's right. It's actually not helping my business. And really the entirety, all your exercises, everything, it made me realize that to self promote, you don't have to give up being nice and you don't have to give up being humble.

You can still do it. but you also can still put yourself out there more and not lose yourself.

Lisa Bragg: Thank you for that gift of telling me how it resonated and what you walked away with. I think that's the one of the biggest gifts as you put yourself and take the risk of writing a book and putting a point of view out in the world and hearing that. So I'm wiggling my toes. So thank you for that. I think it's really letting people know at the end of the day that you are of service and that you are the best person for this.

And it's of service because they know what you're supposed to be doing and then they're not going again to that mediocre person. I think that's why we need to. Have all these awesome people talk about their successes and let other people know and then also as you grow in your success, bring other people along.

So sharing that they are successful and that how, you can mentor, be a brand champion, cheerleader of other people. It's really important. So thank you for having me on and, and sharing your insights too. I appreciate it.

Kyle Soucy: Absolutely, and at the end of the day, we all just want to help people. I mean, that's what it's about, right?

Lisa Bragg: It's absolutely about that.

Kyle Soucy: Yeah. So, besides getting your book, which I suggest everybody to do, how can people get in touch with you, find you?

Lisa Bragg: Yeah, find me on my website. Lisa Bragg. That's B R A G G dot com. So lisabragg. com. And I'm going to start having some public workshops. Most of my work has been within corporate and associations. So I'm going to start to have some public workshops so you can join along. I put a lot of things out on social media too.

I'm always trying to, so you can follow me on LinkedIn. That's where I'm most active too. And I'd welcome your connection there.

Kyle Soucy: Excellent. Well, Lisa, thank you so much again.

Lisa Bragg: Thank you. 

Kyle Soucy: All right. That wraps up this episode. Thanks for joining me. So do you have a topic or a question that you would like us to explore on a future episode of the UX consultants lounge? Perhaps there's an anonymous consulting story you want to submit.

If so, click on the link in the show notes to submit your story or question from the podcast website. Until next time, keep that consultancy going. I can't wait to have you back in the lounge for our next episode.

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