Episode #12 - Steve Portigal and Justin Dauer - Solo, Together: How Two Independent UX Consultants are Collaborating

Show Notes

In this episode, Kyle sits down with two UX industry veterans who are trying something new: Steve Portigal and Justin Dauer have announced a unique collaboration that allows them to work together while maintaining their independent practices. Steve Portigal has been running Portigal Consulting for over two decades, is the author of "Interviewing Users" and "Doorbells, Danger and Dead Batteries," and is a familiar face at conferences worldwide. Justin Dauer is the founder of Anomali by Design, author of "Creative Culture" and "In Fulfillment," and focuses on design leadership and building healthy creative environments. We explore what their "chocolate and peanut butter" collaboration actually looks like, why they chose collaboration over partnership, and how they're combining Steve's research expertise with Justin's design leadership experience. Steve opens up about social comparison being the hardest part of consulting for him, while Justin shares insights about the importance of controlling your own destiny as a consultant.

Key Topics Covered:

  • The evolution of their collaboration and their ideal joint projects
  • The current consulting slowdown
  • Business development strategies: How to be found by clients vs. finding them
  • The reality of being "too well-known": When fame can actually hurt your hirability
  • Book publishing experiences: Traditional vs. self-publishing and how writing supports consulting work

Kyle also reflects on what resonated most from this conversation, including why consultants rarely admit publicly when work is slow, and how that can create a sense of isolation.

If you are an independent UX consultant or thinking about becoming one, this conversation offers honesty, camaraderie, and practical insights into navigating the business side of our work.

(View the episode chapter links for the full list of topics that were discussed.)

 

Links and Resources:

Listener Interaction: Have questions or topics you'd like us to cover in future episodes and/or want to share an anonymous consulting story? Submit your questions and stories here: https://bit.ly/uxconsultants-question-story

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Steve Portigal

Principal, Portigal Consulting

Steve Portigal is an experienced user researcher who helps organizations to build mature user research practices. Based outside of San Francisco, he is principal of Portigal Consulting, and has conducted research with thoracic surgeons, families eating breakfast, rock musicians, home-automation enthusiasts, credit-default swap traders, and real estate agents. His work has informed the development of professional audio gear, wine packaging, medical information systems, design systems, video-conferencing technology, and music streaming services.
He is the author of the classic Interviewing Users: How To Uncover Compelling Insights (now in a second edition, including an audiobook) and Doorbells, Danger, and Dead Batteries: User Research War Stories. He’s also the host of the Dollars to Donuts podcast, where he interviews people who lead user research in their organizations.

Justin Dauer

Founder, Anomali By Design

Justin is an internationally renowned design leader, author, and speaker from Chicago. A perpetual student of design, Justin is ever-evolving in his craft and its infusion with the digital landscape. Medium-agnostic in approach, he leverages the same core set of values across practice (culture), process (craft), and product (output)—with the belief that "connection" is at the heart of it all.
He speaks internationally on culture and design, including keynotes at the UXPA International Conference, Midwest UX, and St. Louis Design Week. Justin is also the writer of the celebrated books "Creative Culture: Human-Centered Interaction, Design, & Inspiration" and "In Fulfillment: The Designer's Journey," a former VP of Design at CVS Health, and the founder of agency Anomali by Design.
A 2025 Marquis Who's Who inductee, you'll find him often engaging with the AIGA's speaking events, interviewed in Forbes magazine and Medium's Forge publication, and penning articles for Aquent, CEO World Magazine, and A List Apart.

Transcript

Kyle Soucy: [00:00:00] Welcome to the UX consultants lounge. I'm Kyle Soucy, founder of Usable Interface an independent UX research consultancy. You can find out more about my work and the services I offer at my website, usableinterface.com. I'll be your host here at the lounge where I'll be providing a place for UX consultants to gather, share stories, and learn more from one another.

Introducing Steve Portigal and Justin Dauer

Kyle Soucy: My guests today are two people you may already know each in very different, but complimentary ways. Steve Portigal has been running his own consultancy, Portigal Consulting, for more than two decades. He's a leader in UX [00:01:00] research, the author of Interviewing Users: How to Uncover Compelling Insights and the book, Doorbells Danger and Dead Batteries: User Research War Stories, and he's a familiar face at conferences and workshops around the world.

Justin Dower is a design leader and culture advocate, founder of Anomali by Design, and the author of Creative Culture: Human-Centered Interaction Design and Inspiration, and the book, In Fulfillment: The Designer's Journey. His work focuses on design, marketing strategies, and building design teams that foster healthy creative environments while also delivering meaningful design outcomes.

Recently, Steve and Justin announced that, in addition to their solo practices, they're now collaborating. Not a formal partnership, but a flexible arrangement where they can work together [00:02:00] when the opportunity is right. In this episode, we dig into what that collaboration actually looks like, why they're keeping their independent practices intact, and what strengths they each bring to the table.

We also talk about the current state of UX consulting, the realities of business development in a slower market, and how writing multiple books, whether self-published or traditionally published, has shaped their consulting work.

 What I found most interesting and honestly most touching was Steve's openness about social comparison and how that's been the hardest part of consulting for him. For someone so renowned in our industry, it was equal parts shocking and relieving to hear this, it made me feel less alone as a fellow consultant who isn't as well known and is [00:03:00] also navigating this tough economy. Steve also pointed out that people sometimes forget or don't even realize that they can actually hire him for the very work he's known for.

With Justin, I loved when he described how lucky we are as consultants to control our own destiny and being our own bosses, and that it is something to be valued and cherished. Justin shared that he's been experiencing extra long sales cycles in this tough economy, and that is something I could absolutely relate to.

Uh, it's been wild how an initial sales call to a proposal to finally closing a deal seems to have quadrupled in time lately. Lastly, I loved how Justin described consulting as hard, but so very worth it.

This conversation with Steve and Justin [00:04:00] also touched on something that doesn't get talked about enough. As consultants, we don't typically go on LinkedIn and announce when we're slow, but our full-time counterparts, you know, UX "innies" can openly post about being laid off and struggling to find work. We as consultants tend to suffer in silence because God forbid we commit the sin of admitting that we're slow.

But the reality is, we're out here hustling without the safety net of an unemployment check. It can feel isolating, which is why having these kinds of conversations on this podcast is so important. They remind us that we're here for each other in solidarity and camaraderie. I think you're going to get a lot out of this one, So grab your favorite drink, settle in, and let's head into the lounge.

Please enjoy [00:05:00] Steve Portigal and Justin Dauer.

 

Kyle Soucy: Hi Steve and Justin. Thank you so much for joining me on the UX Consultants Lounge today.

Steve Portigal: Thank you. Great to see you.

Justin Dauer: Hey, Kyle. Great to be here.

Kyle Soucy: Yeah, good to see you too. I'm just so excited to have you both here. for the listeners, just so you know, Steve and Justin announced recently that they're collaborating.

So in addition to their solo practices, they'll be working together with clients. And today we're going to unpack what that really means, uh, what brought them together and how they see the landscape of UX consulting evolving. And we'll possibly dive into how they run their consultancies in the day-to-day.

Steve's journey to UX consulting

Kyle Soucy: so let's start with your individual consulting journeys. Steve, you've been running Portigal Consulting for over two decades offering UX research, training, and [00:06:00] strategy services. I'd love to know what led you to go solo and what has sustained your work all these years.

 

Steve Portigal: I started in ux before we called it ux, when there was no web. And no, no user experience or ux. Uh, we called it HCI or we called it user interface. Sometimes usability was the only word that got thrown around.and I started with a graduate degree in HCI and no design experience and no awareness of, of user research and barely any of usability in general.

And ended up at a industrial design consultancy in the, nineties where industrial design was the hot sort of innovation, creative, um, you know. Organizations that were, helping to make things that were gonna change, how people were using technology, consumer [00:07:00] products, and so on. It's like really different landscape now.

So that was an era where industrial design consultancies were the hottest, most interesting kind of creative, not necessarily where I worked, but in general. It was a category where you saw a lot of interesting work being done because companies weren't doing design, they didn't have it staffed, they didn't really know what it was.

Design, ux, user research, all the things that we all do, were mostly, with some exceptions, not fully embraced. And so consultancies were where a lot of this work was being done. And I apprenticed in this agency and learned a lot of what I still know how to do from working there at a time when we, in the agency didn't really know what we were doing.

It wasn't a mature field. There weren't books, there were not a lot of conferences or, or just ways to find other people doing it. and that agency didn't survive the. Dot com crash of 2001. So [00:08:00] this kind of dates where all this was, so I didn't really choose to go out on my own. I,I had been a consultant, so I knew what a lot of that involved, and there weren't in-house jobs and there weren't agency jobs.

so I, I bought a domain with my last name, which was available back then, and, uh, decided I would just try it. There wasn't really any other option for me, in 2001. so it's just, I don't know. Best, best way to deal with a really difficult, economic and employment situation from 2001, taking what I had some experience in being a consultant,in user research and, figuring out, what does it look like to run a business doing that?

So it was a choice that was thrust upon me, but it doesn't mean it was a bad choice or a choice that I regret. It's just how I ended up on the path that's, taken me for Yeah, quite a long time. more than two decades, like you said.

Kyle Soucy: That's [00:09:00] wild. So in order to do the work you wanted to, do, you had to do it yourself. You had to go out on your own?

Steve Portigal: Yes.

How Steve's work has changed in the last 20 years

Kyle Soucy: Yeah. Okay. And over 20 years, I imagine things have changed your approach to consulting. How has that changed over these two decades?

Steve Portigal: The market has changed, the maturity of the user research field has changed. So I said a moment ago that companies didn't have people doing this work. And so consultants were, there to kind of lead. and obviously we've had tremendous growth in the maturity of in-house, research practices, design practices.

So what we as consultants do is, has changed,what's the role for me, with companies. Um, lots and lots of research. Most of it gets done by people in companies, let's just say. Let's say that's true. obviously there's a lot of upheaval in is any research being done and by whom and where, but, and some of the [00:10:00] thought leadership stuff I had been doing, writing and speaking at conferences and doing workshops that sort of, community building or just brand building things have shifted to be, a bigger portion of the services that clients hire me for.

and so I sort of found myself in the last few years, focused on two things really at a high level doing the work. So we need to do some research to answer some question that you have to make. And I think under that is what kind of work would you hire me to do versus what your team would do, and then getting better at doing the work.

So looking at. The practice, whether that's training or,uncovering disconnects in what companies wanna do, but how they're set up or kind of auditing processes or, teaching people who do research how to do research and helping researchers up their game. And it's all inward looking around the [00:11:00] practice of research and not outward looking around what do we need to learn from users in order to make this business decision.

I've really been able to focus on two very different pieces. and what's been really rewarding for me, I think is how those inform each other. For example, there's nothing like making a mistake in the field and realizing, oh, that didn't go well, because I failed to follow the advice that's in one of my books. And then, and then. Teaching a, uh, teaching a workshop on doing research and having an example to share with someone about how I messed up and how I messed up recently. So being able to be better at my practice because I'm teaching other people and being able to better at teaching because I'm still trying and failing and making mistakes and or having successes that I can bring into my, teaching as

the stuff you do to help people get better at their practice.

Kyle Soucy: Oh, there's nothing like [00:12:00] the hard learned lessons from the road. That's great. And,

Juston's path to consulting

Kyle Soucy: Justin, you launched, Anomali by Design almost three years ago with a strong emphasis on values like craft and culture. And I'd love to know what made you take the leap into independent consulting, especially in these recent times, which are hard as everyone knows.

Justin Dauer: Yeah. perhaps not the best timing. so I'll definitely acknowledge that. And Steve's, journey is incredibly inspiring, to hear because, three years, like you said, not a ton of time. Multiply that by a factor of almost seven. I, you know, I'm continually impressed by what Steve has done with his practice.

Um, the time that he cited when he, uh, went into, leading his own practice in.com era, not too dissimilar from me in that I was laid off from a major, tech company at the time and, as a design consultant, but I went back into the agency space at that point, rather than, go off on my own.

So [00:13:00] I have more kudos to Steve in that capacity. But, um, that's the era and we were figuring out what design looks like. And the digital landscape broadly. And that's where I cut my teeth.and really being fascinated by that caliber of creative problem solving my work.

And that timeframe really put me on the map and helped build my network in terms of a designer in that period of time.

So once I was able to launch my own practice, that was already in place. so that was immensely helpful. But, you know, I, was in various forms of design leadership for, I don't know, probably around 20 years. at the, at that point, in-house, out of house, agency, studio, what have you. and I hit a point where I was, a VP of design at CVS Health for their, benefits administration product specifically.

And I left that role. And, um, my boss, went on to take a new role and he effectively offered me a similar opportunity, a VP of design to build a practice within the healthcare space. And this is a very, privileged thing to say, but I thought, I've done [00:14:00] that.

I've built teams, I've built cultures. I feel like I did a good amount of work in that space. I felt like it's time to bet on myself, which is why I decided to work in an environment that I could create that was completely values aligned in spaces that I was energized by. You know, I'm a, I'm a denim head.

I collect denim. I have a denim client. I love coffee. If I can get a coffee client, I'll probably retire. Um, but, you know, really work on things that fuel me and energize me. And, thus far, knock on wood, my desk is wood here, so my knock on it, knock on wood. it's worked out. So I've been, I've been fortunate.

Justin's reflection 3 years after starting consulting

Kyle Soucy: That's fantastic. Congratulations on taking the leap and what you said really rings true about your network. Your network is everything. I tell anybody that's thinking about getting into consulting, it's who you know. It doesn't have to be. A lot of people, it has to be the right people.

and I wanted to take a moment here 'cause I was looking back on some of your LinkedIn posts that you had, and there was one, a year after you [00:15:00] started, Anomali design where you were just reflecting on the year of your first year in business. And you were very just, you were great about being honest with your feelings.

You were saying that, have I had some second thoughts at times? Yes. Have I experienced imposter syndrome? Sure. But you said, and I quote here, uh, here's the thing. To have an opportunity to build a business and culture inherently values aligned, as you said, to be able to do high quality consultive work across design and engagement, and to work with clients in verticals, I respect and I'm energized by literally worth every single additional gray hair.

And curious now,almost approaching that three year mark, feel the same way?

Justin Dauer: I do. I'm glad I was so honest in that post because it's not to say that there still aren't days or times or minutes or hours or weeks where I'm like, God, this is, it's hard. did it, did I make the right move? that's, that still comes up.

I just, admit my humanity there. Um, but you know, the buck [00:16:00] stops with us as consultants in totality and, you know, we can outsource some things certainly, but client relations. Pre-sales and sales delivery, scheduling, if there's a marketing calendar, what have you,it all falls on us at the end of the day, but it all comes back to us too, which is something I think is a non-trivial, point of value in what we do.

we're not, busting our rears and someone else benefits we're able to control our destiny, which I think is something to be valued and cherished in many ways. And again, it's, it's a privilege thing and it's something I, I appreciate, but, um, boy, it, it is worth it.

Kyle Soucy: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.

Why Steve and Justin decided to offer collaborative consulting services

Kyle Soucy: and now just talking about your collaboration, you've recently announced, I think it was a couple months ago, about, uh, your collaboration and I would love to know what sparked it and why now.

Steve Portigal: Justin and I met a few years ago, I was visiting Chicago and a bunch of people got together at a bar or something like [00:17:00] that. And I think maybe we knew of each other, but we had never really interacted. And I dunno, we started talking, here's, a bunch of people holding fort as they do when, big wigs get together at a bar and here's this kind of nice guy, quiet spoken.

And we, I think we liked talking to each other a little bit. And then, Justin, you may have a different version of this narrative, but Justin reaches out to me shortly after that. I think it says, would you write a forward for my book? Is that right? It was like the penultimate book, I think in your things that you'd published, but you asked me to do that and so, um, you know, got this book manuscript, read it over, proposed some things.

 It ends up being a little collaboration just to get a document to somebody that they need, how they need it, when they need it. And, here's this, all this positive, interaction that we had. this is, I dunno, Justin is low key spoken, at least so far in our conversation, but is exuberant in his [00:18:00] feedback and appreciation and, um, just started to set I guess a little bit of a tone for us.

And I think we had a couple more interactions around publishing things. Somehow we end up in, in a like, Hey, let's catch up. Call. I'm sure Justin initiated this and did this really audacious thing and that no one has ever done. 'cause you catch up with people. It's been so long. We talk about networking.

Um, how do you kind of move your network to closer relationships, which as an introvert, I want, but I avoid. Right? It's a weird conflicting thing. and we have this great call and talk about what we're doing and Justin says, I think we should keep in regular touch. I think we should talk every three weeks.

I'm putting it on the calendar, which is, I mean, that's chutzpah. Um, but I agreed, and then we started talking and I think Justin, you may have been really direct, I think there's an opportunity here. At some point you brought that up and, we didn't know what to do with that. And we spent a lot of [00:19:00] time over, I don't know, a couple of years talking, sharing stories, complaining, celebrating, talking about just everything in our practices and in our sort of public personas and our writing.

And, we had to figure out like, how do you figure out what the collaboration looks like? And we started a Google Doc at one point and then dropped it. and then, there was some workshop that was being promoted that was led by two people that maybe have different podcasts or have different kind of consulting brands.

And Justin sends this along and says this is like the model, this is the template. And after kind of years of talking about how we would work together, I think maybe we were stuck on like, how do you position it? How do we retain our individual brands and create kind of an gestalt narrative that says this is better when we're together because we have these separate things.

and we saw [00:20:00] somebody else do it and it was really a piece of inspiration. And we again, started a Google doc, but we kind of rift through talking about. Why us? What do we wanna do? How do we describe it? Uh, and it, it came together, I think it took us, you know, years of talking to be able to really quickly, and I think joyfully, if I can use that word, it was really like we had a lot of fun,working asynchronously in a documents and, Justin sketching things up and just figuring out how do we tell a story about what we can do and what we want to do and what we think our differentiation is.

it came together easily because we'd been talking to each other for a really long time. I'll stop there. Kyle. I'm sure there was some other point that I should have been heading towards, but I'll stop.

Kyle Soucy: Well, that's, no, it's good to know what triggered it. And Justin, would you say that's about an accurate [00:21:00] portrayal of how it came together or would

Justin Dauer: Yeah, yeah, of course. Steve nails it. I, we had both, I think, discovered that we, at that first bar conversation, we had given consecutive opening keynotes at Midwest ux conference, and we were like, oh, so that kind of kicked things off andI'll tell you what, at this point in our. Slash my career. I want to work with folks that are, I'll keep saying this. Values aligned are going to energize me, inspire me, and challenge me. I don't wanna be stayed in my evolution. I want to continue to grow and I wanna do things and work with people that I'm passionate about and, really drive success.

Steve and I are incredibly values aligned. we cherish a healthy culture. We've done a lot of work in that capacity, but via, writing or public speaking. and then, the, if you look at our logo, the Steve Plus Justin logo, it's the you got my chocolate in my peanut butter, peanut butter in my chocolate, that old commercial.

and we just said that kind of ad hoc, you know, ha, isn't that [00:22:00] funny? And then I, I made the, you know, a logo about it. But, um. We just compliment each other incredibly well in so many facets from delivery through offering, through beliefs, in business and otherwise.

And, I don't know the, it's, I think at this point in my dotage and back to my gray hairs, again, I wanna work in environments that,are where I'm going to do my best work. And, creating our own environment, again, a, a massive point of privilege with somebody who I consider a friend and also somebody who inspires me greatly.

 It's a non-trivial thing and it's something I value immensely. So that's why, Steve's cassette, Justin started the Google document or he made the phone call, when I see something I want to go for it. And I think this was something definitely worth, going for.

So, yeah, we're massively excited about it and I appreciate you asking about it.

Why they formed a collaboration instead of a partnership

Kyle Soucy: Yeah. Yeah. I noticed you've both been intentional about using the term collaboration and not partnership. Is there a reason for that distinction?

Steve Portigal: Well, what are you, some kind of user researcher. [00:23:00] Yeah. Take take a shot of that Justin. I have a thought, but please.

Justin Dauer: I think it shows, um, we have confidence separately as well as collaboratively. Steve has his own brand and his own, offerings and client. Book, and, business things that he is working on, I, I do as well. And I think it's cool to be able to deviate and go do our own things, then realign, um, on the, on the same path and go off and spoke out and come back again.

I think we both value that kind of fluidity, to retain our, individual identities. And I hate to say personal brand, but some variation of that concept here.and our respective networks as well. but it's cool to just come back together and say, oh, here's something.

let's go talk about that. Let's chase that. Or, Hey, I have an idea. Let's come back together and, put together a Google doc and chase that. So it offers some autonomy and it offer off also offers a degree of complementary cohesion. I think that's quite cool.

Kyle Soucy: I see you nodding Steve. So

Steve Portigal: I agree. And I think, uh, you know, [00:24:00] collaborations aren't exclusive. Right? Partnerships suggests to your point, Justin, about individual. Versus together. There's a, that, that word, I mean, it has a legal meaning, around business structures, I think. And it also just, it, it suggests, exclusivity, and I don't think that's what we're seeking, you know, to have, healthy balances and, pursue different opportunities that come up. But it says, Hey, we're thinking about each other and thinking about, what we can do together as part of the overall mix.

Kyle Soucy: I think it's very wise. I. I'm not familiar with other people doing it, so I have not seen this before, so that's why I was so intrigued by it. I think I was mainly intrigued that you are still keeping your solo practice intact while you explore this collaboration together, and I can't tell you how many times over.

my career as a consultant, people have come up to me and they said, Hey, we should partner. And I'm like, Hey, what the hell does that mean? I don't know. You want me to [00:25:00] totally throw away everything I've built, start something new that's scary. it just, there's so many different ways to do it and I think this is really interesting 'cause it's to me, safer, right?

you can explore without giving anything up. definitely kudos for trying something like this out.

Steve and Justin's ideal project

Kyle Soucy: And I'd love to learn a little bit more about what this collaboration looks like. we talked before and you mentioned you don't have joint clients yet, but, would love to know what kind of work you're hoping to do together.

what would a dream project look like for the two of you?

Justin Dauer: at a macro level, again, to come back to the collaborative point, it's more irons in the fire, right? It's not easy out there. we can chase work individually and come back and chase work collaboratively. So I think that's a huge boon, if nothing else, at a very, at a 30,000 foot level.

But as far as our offering, Combined or collaboratively. I kind of tipped my hat to this earlier. when Steve and I were noodling through what can we do together that makes sense? And like he said, we thought of some things, then we'd come [00:26:00] back three weeks later and I'm like, eh, that doesn't really work.

We finally had a eureka moment when I was driving back from Nashville, with my family, and I was on a call with Steve and and we just nailed it. Like it was like lightning striking. And we came to two points and he threw some notes down in a Google doc. Boy, that keeps coming up.

Steve Portigal: This episode sponsored today by Google Docs.

Justin Dauer: my gosh. and a and in an online document environment, we put together some thoughts and, it just came together and it came, it congealed in two ways. Culture, as I said, we're very passionate about, and we, um, distilled that down to team building. Or, you know, creative organizations within large organizations.

And one of the things I massively value, which again, comes back to another reason why I respect Steve so much, is the value of research. When I took that role on as, a VP at CVS Health, the first thing I did as a design leader was build a research practice. because we were, at the time, the organization was [00:27:00] outsourcing it to a, another company that CVS Health owned.

And, I wanted to build it internally so it could be more nimble. We can build relationships with the organization and build a practice from there. so that's, to me is always higher one or if it, if it suits the,the given need. And it did. Absolutely. In that case. So I, I value research for culture building and, creative output and product building inherently.

To that end, the chocolate and peanut butter mindset towards culture building, team building, as well as building product or helping organizations understand product market fit. Should we even be building this product? I think because of Steve and my, and I don't mean to put words in your mouth, Steve, respective practices and beliefs and experience.

We can be small but mighty in that capacity and we can provide a metric ton of value based on what we're able to deliver and coach clients through. so that's what we're really excited about and charged by. And that's really what, in the core of the DNA of what we put together here.

Steve Portigal: Yeah, I can add to that. When I, when I'm [00:28:00] hired to do research, it's often, very early on in any process. and I'm not doing, research that then is gonna ship in the very immediate term. Usually the questions are thornier and hairier longer term or more whatever, more forward looking.

and I don't know, I miss that. I think, growing up in the design consulting world, it was, you were trying to ship stuff. You were trying to change how people thought about things and ship things. even if we weren't delivering design services, they were coming to a design firm for research or innovation or whatever they're calling it.

and I have missed that over the years and I think. by crafting a new story about what we do together, opens up the opportunities to work on, you call them dream projects, they're different. I mean, hopefully different than either of us have done, but bringing the best of what we both can do.

and reimagining a category and helping [00:29:00] the company move it forward. I don't know that we're talking about kind of execution shipping, but there's stuff that has to happen. and all the stories that Justin and I have been sharing about how we work, it's a little, I kind of find some of his stories tantalizing because things get made, as a result of these difficult to inform decisions and it makes me feel like, oh, I want to inform these, those decisions and see them. Take flight. It doesn't mean that people don't act on my solo work, it's just I'm not engaged when that happens. and so a different structure of an engagement where it's not me doing my best as a consultant, but it's us doing our best as a team to solve a bunch of things that have to happen inside an organization, either to ship or to change culture and build teams.

Uh, if I think about a training discussion that I'm in, it's usually very focused on the nuts and bolts of research. That's what I've [00:30:00] written about, that's what I've been, speaking about. the context for why are we doing research and what are we trying to do and what do we do with it?

 there's a larger set of. Of practices and best practices, that I think, Justin's leadership, building teams and kinda working over time across the organization, I have less experience in, and I can see how those are questions that my clients should be asking when they're asking me for help with research skill building.

and so again, it's not end to end, it's not soup to nuts, but it is a more sort of all encompassing or a broader encompassing offering that, we can tell a story together about how we can do it and we can collaborate. Like Justin has workshop materials and best practices and theories and, knows how to run this in this kind of meeting when we're in the situation.

Like he just has a [00:31:00] palette that he's expert in that I don't, And so I think the, the chocolate and peanut butter, putting those two things together means that we can work. Um, yeah, it, it's, it's up a level maybe in the organization or across, I'm not sure what the positioning, uh, words are, around that, like directionality of it.

But it seems like there's just gonna be, better ability to solve, I think the problems that we all, we both are seeing, that we can't necessarily step into without, having the right team in place.

Kyle Soucy: Well, I'm oddly craving a Reese's peanut butter cup now,

Justin Dauer: A second sponsor. Yeah, exactly.

Kyle Soucy: But I can see how the individual strengths that you both have, how they can compliment each other well in this offering. And there's nothing I personally love better than a designer that values research and understands that it's not a bottleneck and it's the only way to get to good design.

so to me that's the [00:32:00] dream, right? I'm so glad you could take me through that. I was very curious about it and

The current slowdown in UX consulting

Kyle Soucy: I'd love to talk now about. Your thoughts, both of you on the current state of UX consulting. Steve, you've been candid on LinkedIn and in Slack communities about the slowdown in your work, which I so appreciate, the transparency and willingness to be open to talk about this since we're all feeling it right now.

And I was wondering, what do you think is behind that shift?

Steve Portigal: You hear things get thrown around and I sort of pick those up, uh, what the end of free money is. One thing that got said, which I'm not an economically smart enough to kind of explain, uh, the social contagion of sort of layoffs,that's a decrease in demand, that's led to changes in-house.

and yeah, that's all anyone really wants to talk about, right? the people that are losing their jobs that can't [00:33:00] get jobs. Well, all of us are still hustling and hustling harder, but we sometimes I feel very bitter that we don't get sort of the. LinkedIn share of grief, that is mostly saved for the in-house people, and that's not a very generous thought of mine, but, we know

Kyle Soucy: it's true.

Steve Portigal: we're looking for work our whole careers and, yeah, I don't exactly know why there's less need.

 The work that we do if it's not perceived as valuable enough, can be executed by someone cheaper. Um, you know, why would I hire Justin when I can hire an intern who already knows Figma and they can just go off and execute according to my directions? yeah, there's been so many,

angsty thought out posts about what are the systemic causes, what are the systemic fixes? And, I'm saying something because the questions come up, but I don't, I'm not,grinding an ax about this in particular. I don't [00:34:00] know, any more than sort of the, the surface level that I just dribbled here.

Kyle Soucy: No, I agree. There's so much we don't know. a lot of people suspected that I think US independents are. Busy because the work still needs to get done, right? We're laying off all the internal folks. it'll probably go to freelancers or something. And sadly that's not been the case. not in my experience, it's just not getting done.

budgets aren't being approved from what I see. Lots of freezing, lots of people holding on, because of uncertainty. And I think you're right. It's frustrating thatwe're not very loud, on LinkedIn because God forbid you commit the sin of being a consultant and admitting you don't have work.

 But that is the case, for a lot of us with these last few years have been tough. And Justin too, I know you've talked about the importance of supporting designers, including your advocacy for unionization when you had Ethan Marcot on your podcast. [00:35:00] And how does that mindset influence the way you approach client work or business decisions?

Justin Dauer: first of all, it's, to your original question, it's not easy out there by any stretch. and my, sales cycles are just massive, almost laughably massive. I thankfully just signed, or had a client sign an SOW, I dunno, a couple weeks ago, but that's, that was like five and a half months of conversation from email one to that point.

so just again, where to the buck stops with us ism, just all the energy expended on conversations and check-ins and re revisions and, you still have other commitments going on, or if there's kids and you have to take care of it. It's a lot. And again, it's a wonderful thing and it's a point of privilege, but it's a lot of energy expended, in a non-trivial capacity.

it's not easy out there. And again, that's why, you know, I think Steve and I coming together to, have another, branch in the tree, if you will, towards maybe getting some work and doing some work together in a really cool capacity is a [00:36:00] great thing. And I would recommend a similar exploration if you, if there's another, UX consultant in that capacity finds their, UX spirit animal to potentially pursue, because I think there's a lot of good there . In terms of, more junior designers and navigating, their career paths. Right now, my, my heart goes out to those who are. Just can be a name on a spreadsheet, more or less when it comes to layoffs or staff reductions.

And you just see this happening by the hundreds. And then there's another post. this company laid off of, 9,000 or this company laid off 500 and.like Steve mentioned, the.com era that, you just heard on this call that happened to both of us at that point. And I was exactly a name on the spreadsheet at that point, and I was just the entire city of Chicago, that office was just wiped out.

just a, an Excel tab deleted at that point. That put me in a massive debt. and, not to play the tiny violin, but again, to empathy and compassion. I am genuinely concerned and,that's why I consider a lot of the public speaking. I do an act of service in that capacity about finding your best fit and finding an organization [00:37:00] that's gonna support you.

One of the good signs for, if you're gonna apply for a role, like it's gonna be a good cultural fit or support your evolution, or you could be there for the long haul. So I think as much as, as we consultants are doing brand building and building our, recognition, towards our work and what we can do for clients, I consider that an act of service as well, which to me comes back to values alignment about that kind of speaking and helping people in our field evolve and find work and grow as well.

so it's not just about us that for me to we mindset. a bit of a gray, muddy answer there, but, um. It's not easy for consultants, for any level, junior, mid, senior,and up from there. But, I think as long as we have clear expectations of what our values are and how we can align them to this field or something else, which I've considered in the past, do I wanna be a carpenter?

do I wanna be a mechanic? I don't know. I think you'll end up in a good spot. But, just kind of understanding things take time now. Finding a job takes time. Finding work takes time. but other things happen quickly. The evolution of [00:38:00] AI happens quickly and that technology, it leaps and bounds day over day or hour.

Hour. So, I don't know. That was a kind of a crazy answer, but, there's a lot going on right now and that's why I think, conversations like the ones we're having are just good to get it out there in a brain dump capacity and hopefully extract some value from there.

Kyle Soucy: Oh yeah. And what you said about the long sales cycle. Oh, it, it is frustrating. It seems longer now, I've noticed with, some direct clients when I get into that proposal writing stage, lots more back and forth like that, Ooh, do I really wanna commit now that I'm seeing this in black and white? Where prior to writing the proposal, it was like, we need to get this done yesterday.

Let's go, let's go. And then they see it and they're like, whoa, I don't know. Let's pump the brakes a little bit. So I'm seeing that as well and I think it's very, interesting how with this feeling of , the job market really just falling off a cliff. I always told myself, over these 20 years consulting [00:39:00] that What's the risk like? So if things don't work out, I just go get a real job, right? No big deal. Now, a lot of my friends and colleagues who are also 20 year veterans, they, it is hard. It is hard that, that seniority, that those years of, experience are actually working against you now.

so that's kind of scary. so I just had to, you know, what you were saying, just echoed that and what I was feeling. I,

Do clients value UX research and design strategy differently now?

Kyle Soucy: it's just surprising how things have changed just so quickly. Um, just a follow up on this. From your experience, both of you, are your clients changing in how they value UX research and design strategy?

Justin Dauer: A lot of my ins, interestingly in client conversations, and that's just to get the door open. have been through the lens of marketing. I've found that interesting. And oftentimes you poke around and say, when you say marketing, what do you mean? And ultimately it can come down to design or research as being the need.

[00:40:00] This could just be my experience, but a couple, maybe three of the engagements I've actually signed have been through the initial lens of I need marketing help. Then you dig in. Like I said, it can be, maybe social media is a facet and I could outsource some of that. Or maybe, we need AI integrated in some capacity to just, keep up with my competition and I help them strategize, about what can we actually do here?

how can it be applicable? How can it be cost effective? How are we not gonna burn down a forest, with a million cycles of wasted processing? So I think as consultants, that's again, in a design and research thinking capacity. We can help them pump the brakes a bit and pause with intent and analyze what they actually want to and need to do.

it's been interesting where work has come from. I've gotten some work from people finding my company's name in another engagements website footer. And they reached out to me and said, I like what you did here. Let's talk. And,and, maybe I overhear something. I'm gonna always be closing mode.

So I always have my business cards on me. And if I'm at, my [00:41:00] son's birthday party and somebody walks in, they're like, oh, do you know so and so owns three restaurants in Chicago. I'm like, hi, I'm Justin. I have a business card here. how's your, how are your websites looking?

So again, towards energy expenditure, being an always be closing mode and just try and think, is there an in, is there a good fit? Is this somebody I might wanna work with? so work has come from weird places. What I'm trying to do is standardize that and make it not come from weird places as much as possible and make it more predictable.

Which of course is the golden apple in what we do. So that's why, in working with someone like Steve and collaborating in that capacity, maybe we could standardize things a bit more and take a bit of that anxiety off.

How Steve and Justin handle business development and marketing

Kyle Soucy: Oh, that's a great segue, to what I wanted to talk about next, which was a little bit about, business development and marketing. And the number one question I get from listeners is, where do you find the clients and, where do you find them and how do you keep them? And how do you both manage client relationships, when it's just you, your solo practice?

And also how do you envision doing that [00:42:00] when you take on the joint clients together?

Steve Portigal: Where do you find clients? I think the strategy that I've chosen, and this goes back 20 plus years, is to,have clients find me.and that's when I pause like that, it sounds like it's a big insight, but it's not right. I think, cold calling doesn't work, keeping in touch and maintaining relationships does work, but I think people that are new to consulting or sales overall or business development, think that you go talk someone into hiring you.

Here's what I can do, and I'm gonna give you a pitch, which is meant to persuade you. but that's not really how it works, right? You're trying to,like in Justin's example, make people aware that you can solve a problem that they have and ask them questions about what they're doing. but how do you get those initial conversations to begin with?

like I've said a couple times, I've written books. I used to [00:43:00] write a column in a magazine. I used to write on a prominent design blog. LinkedIn is now where you can find me. We've spoken at Midwest ux, I've spoken at conferences literally around the world. and all that makes people aware that I exist and that I have some unspecific qualifications or prominence. so what I think what I'm trying to do, whether this has been successful or not, I don't know, is be in the consideration set, right? When someone says, oh, we want to really up our game,around this product or around this part of our practice, I want someone in that conversation to say, oh, you know who we should call Steve Portigal, right?

 I don't know. I can't say that's worked beautifully, but certainly I get that feedback from people like, we're doing this thing, and of course we wanted to talk to you.that's a beast that has to be fed like in five years from any point in time. There's all kinds of new people in the field, new people in leadership [00:44:00] roles,and new competitors, new, thought leaders.

the field shifts. So you have to constantly be doing stuff to put out there so people keep finding you or keep be being reminded of you. Today Justin and I are on a podcast talking about our practice. this is great for us. This is our first time being together, doing stuff that says, Hey world, we exist and here's what we're about.

And we've certainly brainstormed content we could create or relationships that we could,start to foster, ways that we could take our individual relationships and introduce each other and present ourselves as a team.all these things take energy and take,focus and, have to be balanced among everything else.

So I feel like for Justin and I, we're not short of good ideas. Everything has to be prioritized. We have just tried to take it slow [00:45:00] and, not make it,burdensome for us. But we have,in a document collaborative environment, we do have a list of things that we could do, people that we should talk to, we thought about,not pitching somebody, but asking for feedback and thinking about what kind of people might hire us, and whether it's calling someone that we actually want to hire us or that just can speak, reflectively about the challenges in spending money on consultants or,can give us feedback on our positioning and.

Why would we hire chocolate and peanut butter when we can get, caramel over here? I don't know what feedback we would get, but, going to people and saying, Hey, can you give us feedback, is a way for us to practice lowercase as selling, like talking about ourselves, talking about what we have to offer.

and what I have found in the last few years is, and again, energy ebbs and flows, but I had a little program from my own practice [00:46:00] of just reconnecting with people and, I have a large contact database as we all have some version of that is just, gee, who would be good to talk to.

And, those are calls that I've positioned as, Hey, let's just catch up and not, Hey, let me tell you what I'm doing. And some people will ask what you're doing. Be interested and say, you should talk to so and so, or I have this thing coming up. and so again, as an introvert, it fits pretty well to like ask people questions, hear what they're doing and see how organically that can lead to opportunities, or even just plant seeds for future opportunities.

So I think for Justin and I, we are taking it slow and just announcing something on LinkedIn was like a big step and and having this conversation with you today. and I think it's about, chance favoring the prepared mind.

I think by us announcing this collaboration and practicing talking about [00:47:00] it, it will let us hear opportunities that we may not have seen before. Justin and I think compliment each other with a lot of overlap, which is what I like about us. But Justin, I think you're gonna have a different answer to Kyle's initial question.

Kyle Soucy: Yeah. Anything different about finding and keeping clients and just business development approach?

Justin Dauer: I appreciate Steve's answer for sure. and again, standardization of it is something I aspire to. It's coming from some interesting ways. for example, a Japanese company innovation competition that my company was, so I don't know how we were found, but, maybe it was the brand building side of things.

My company was invited to, participate. We ultimately, won that competition and are now, talking to several companies in the Japanese market who might be interested in building a Western presence. that to me is like a meteor hitting and then me touching it and becoming, a superpower.

it's, it comes outta nowhere. It offers a great gift, but I want to standardize things as much as [00:48:00] possible, and to the point of humility and being as realistic as I said,I, I know folks like Steve and you and I've, you know, years and years of building up a network boy that has yet to pay offin a work capacity.

I know great people and I'm inspired and I'm charged. But in terms of Obtaining, putting food on the table, like channeling, that into energy, if you will. the wheel turning in the dam and generating energy from that, that has yet to happen. So working with someone as, brilliant as Steveis our way of putting that together. What are you laughing at, man?you gotta take the

Steve Portigal: very, you're instinctively, kind.

Justin Dauer: no, but really so that, that's, that is a way of trying to standardize that and make that a non, astronomical event as much as humanly possible. we're, like Steve said, we're very intentional about the way we approach things. I think that's inherent in who we are and our respective crafts.

Like he also said, just announcing itwas a feat [00:49:00] articulating what the message is and what our offerings are like, and what does the website look like. And you know, we have two, uh, folks who are, you know, senior in our, respective career evolutions with strong opinions from our respective crafts.

And even just going through that exercise, would it implode? Like that's a non-trivial thing. Like going through that we could be like this, you know what, I like you a lot, it's not gonna work. so there were many chances for something like this for us to, is it gonna pass the sniff test?

And repeatedly it's past the sniff test. That's why again, we're so charged about what we're gonna do and we're not just putting it out there to hopefully, buy a Ferrari. We're putting it out there because we genuinely think we can offer genuine value together based on our respective offering.

So I think that's a really cool thing.

Steve Portigal: Kyle, you asked, there was a bunch of facets to your question. I think we, I don't know how much we picked up on the keep clients aspect of it. That was the last part of your question. And,I think all the storytelling that Jess and I have been doing and building our relationship and building our collaboration. Justin just has these great stories about [00:50:00] the individual, key client in some of his projects. And they're not always rosy because work is not always perfect. If it was effortless, they wouldn't need us. but I think that keeping clients thing, like when I look around at just my peers, I think some people are excellent at that.

I guess to me, keeping clients is, it's not, don't get fired, it's keep going. and I have sometimes been able to keep going with clients and sometimes not. it's been a up and down mix. but I really respect the way some people are so good at that, I don't know ju Justin, I think you care about the people and you.

Take on their objectives and mission as your own. and that's sort of a, maybe a design mindset, what you're building. and I think, again, I'm not trying to like Slack myself here, but I think as a researcher, you wanna learn stuff and then you want to help somebody else,really [00:51:00] get on board with that thing.

but the learning stuff, understanding the world in a new way is it can be a completely satisfying payoff. And,I care about my clients and I want them to do well. And I see people like Justin that are excellent at that. And I think, That's a way to up my own keeping clients' game , is putting that skin really into that relationship and into the outcomes that kind of come from there.

That's riskier. That's sort of emotionally riskier.and I think we get pushed, through going through procurements and setting all these terms and being project management. it is easy to be. Transactional in the work. And I think,COVID and remote work made work more transactional.

it's just the nature of the dynamic that our clients are in is scheduling and, zoom boxes and calendar boxes and, ticking off things, on [00:52:00] lists. And,it is hard to put your whole heart in when you're put in a transactional mode. And again, that's why I look to people like Justin and others that inspire me, who care, with their full bodies to get there.

and I think that is, that's how you keep clients, right? Is to really, is to love the work and to act like you love the work.

Kyle Soucy: Yeah. And just to care about that relationship. It's not transactional. It shouldn't be. Absolutely. I think that's a very good reminder for myself and for everyone that these are not just clients. You know . You want them to be. A long-term engagement, a friendship, something you care about, the outcome you care about, where they go, what challenges they have, how you could or could not help them.

Is it possible to be too well known?

Kyle Soucy: And something you said earlier, prompted a question that might sound a little odd or perhaps dumb, but here it goes. you mentioned top of mind. You [00:53:00] wanna be top of mind when someone's like, okay, we have this problem. so and so wrote a book on it. They're everywhere about it.

We need to get, Steve, Justin in here on this. That's great. But I have a question here where I saw this happen before Donna Spencer, I think it was five plus years ago, pre COVID, a long time ago. She wrote on LinkedIn and she was writing a reminder to everybody who follows her and I, she said, I might be somewhat famous, quote unquote, but.

I am also someone you can hire. is it possible to have too much awareness where you almost are untouchable, where people feel like, oh yeah, we need someone like that, but not him, because he's too, you know, we can possibly get him when really it's like, I'm accessible, folks, you can hire me.

Is that something either of you have ever experienced or is that kind of insane? You could never really be too, well known or have too much awareness.

Steve Portigal: I think you, you nailed it. I've had [00:54:00] people say, I'm sure you're too busy. Which those are the people that have reached out, but they still are sort of, you know, hedging their request. Um, at times when I'm definitely not too busy. yeah, I, and I don't know that, that being less known is, I don't think it's like,dial your 11 back to a seven and then everyone will know that you're famous

Kyle Soucy: was a sweet spot.

Steve Portigal: of mind.

I don't think there is a sweet spot. I think it's just a, We know this with social media and with sort of positioning our work, like people create narratives about you and, it's hard to control that. I don't know, you end up on a podcast, not this one, but you know, they write a bio about you or they mispronounce something.

Or I've spoken at conferences where they've said, Steve Portigal author. And that is a way of showing how great their conference is 'cause they got this famous author. But it's terrible for me. And I've had peers write me,advocating for me upset that this [00:55:00] site or this event has framed me that way.

They're like, don't, doesn't so and so the event know all that you've done. I'm like. Yes, I would like to be always presented as this is someone that you can hire. And so we don't always control that. And then I think, you do things like write books and your books are filled with examples of Justin's book is filled with examples of leading teams and building culture.

and does talks about that. And,and then people create their own story. Justin's an author. Let's have him on our book talk podcast. And this book was really great. It really helped us. You're still the author. andI think that's the upside is I've gotten more authoring kind of work.

I think training and running workshops as stuff that experts get to do. but as soon as I published my first book 2013, it seemed I saw a drop off in the amount of requests to do research that was a [00:56:00] book about how to do research 2013. And then, all of a sudden people weren't calling me to do research and they were calling me to speak and they were paying me to speak and I was getting other kinds of things.

but it's, yeah, I don't know. And it feels sour grapes to complain about the downside of having a, I mean I'll just call it fame, right? Donna is a great example of someone that is famous and has done all that stuff and is like OG as we say around a lot of things. I actually like how Donna's sort of stories about herself on all sorts of platforms have been about, I have this contract, I have this team.

Like she does a great job of talking about sort of the mechanics of her work and reminding us that she's in that sort of substance. Like I don't write. Hey, I responded to an RFP last week and I'm still waiting to hear. I don't, to me, that's very private stuff and I don't want that to be, yeah. I don't wanna make content out of [00:57:00] that.

and so me being busy or not being busy or having work, or looking for work or, you know, is, is hidden. It's sort of it for conversations like this as opposed to sort of posting in a one-to-many kind of way. so yeah, just to reiterate, I think you, you nailed a challenge that I have been grappling with and I don't, I have no idea.

I mean, I have, I have some idea, but I don't have an effective way of keeping my brand as, uh, you can hire me. I don't know.

Kyle Soucy: Yeah, it's interesting for me to know that that is a real problem and that you can be sometimes assumed to be too expensive or too, you know, infamous to bring into, an organization.

Steve Portigal: I, I did one thing, and I don't know that this is effective, but just to play with it, so LinkedIn has those, open to work rings you can put around your profile photo, but somebody made,like a little banner generator,

 That you could use to generate your own banner around your photo.

and, [00:58:00] I did a, I think it says consulting or something like that. So I chose a color and I offered it to some people in a Slack group to the idea. Maybe we could extend that language to say We are hireable, and put it in the photo the way that other people are kind of using that photo to say how you can transact with them.

Kyle Soucy: Yeah. Yeah, I saw that. I have not done that, but I've been thinking about it, like why not? Yeah. Can't hurt.

Why Justin decided to self publish his books

Kyle Soucy: Yeah. One last topic I wanted to touch on before we do some rapid fire questions at the end here. we talked about writing. Both of you have written multiple UX books. and it's interesting to hear about how it does and does not sometimes lead to, a certain kind of work that you might get.

Definitely more speaking gigs. For those that are out there listening, a lot of consultants consider writing. I definitely have. Justin, you chose to, self-publish your books, which is no small feat. and I was wondering what drove that [00:59:00] decision and how did it shape your experience as both an author and a consultant?

Justin Dauer: Well, the first book Cultivating a Creative Culture, was actually started with a book apart. so the first three chapters were edited by, a book apart authors, and it was going to be a part of that brand.but we ultimately deviated, myself and them amicably and I decided to self-publish instead.

Now, as a. Designer and someone who is, um, uh, cherishes, brand development and storytelling. For me, that was a huge boon because then I was able to take control of the look and feel and the brand development and bring in illustrations, write a bit less than an editorial capacity and more inject my experience and myself into the material.

So it was a shift that, I really valued. But, holy moly, picking your own editor,razor thin margins on publishing. quality of book means you make less money. all I was massively naive to that. So [01:00:00] as someone who genuinely values, being a student of my craft and evolution, I valued those learnings.

But, I did not value the effort involved in picking up all that slack because it, again, the buck stops with you on all that. To your question, how did that help me as a consultant? Exactly that. Understanding, if I'm going to take this on, the buck stops with me on everything. I have to find a quality editor that's going to energize me, and we're going to have the same vision and challenge me and call me out.

My BS very similar to the dynamics Steve and I have. We compliment each other, but we also, keep each other in line and help each other evolve. So I appreciate you asking that because it's actually a fantastic, metaphor for that kind of mindset. really injecting humility that you can leverage your experience, but you're not the expert in a given thing.

You still have to be open to evolve and not assert. Um, uh, because I've been around for so long, I know it all. I think as soon as we have that kind of mindset, that's where failure and speaking in a vacuum comes into play. Really putting values in action, helped in the publishing process [01:01:00] and like Steve was kind enough to write the forward for the second edition of my first book.

and writing another entire book after that. again, it's a lot of time, it's a lot of effort. The value from the process helps me evolve and I am a huge believer in acts of service as, someone who does what I do. So the lion share of my speaking engagements are about culture, design, evolution, or practice.

the books hopefully are a tool of that as well. it's been massively beneficial in that capacity?

Kyle Soucy: Yeah, I was wondering about what advantages, if any, existed with getting that control and flexibility that you mentioned with self-publishing. And, it sounds like that was the right decision to make considering a book apartwent, away. And so, uh, that I think it was good you went that brow.

I know so many people are curious about it. I, myself am curious about it. So it's great to hear, how important it is to have a good editor, and hire that person and all those decisions. There's a lot of them to make.

What Steve's experience was like working with a publisher for his books

Kyle Soucy: And Steve, your books were, [01:02:00] traditionally published. What was that experience like?

did working with a publisher, support or possibly limit your goals?

Steve Portigal: It You have less control. as not a designer, I don't have a lot of the. Ability to make a thing my way. So it's good if someone else has figured out what it should look like and how it should be produced, all of that. In terms of the consultant thing, we've talked about networking in and out.

having published booksis a tool for reconnecting with people. Like last week I talked to someone I hadn't talked to in five years, who I really like and respect. And, they reached out to me because they wanted to get some advice on publishing or self-publishing or writing. and I probably have a version of that conversation with somebody new.

I don't know. Every six months, and there are just really lovely conversations. I have, gone through this process and have some thoughts about what I did do, what I didn't do, and to connect with peers around [01:03:00] that has really has been positive when people that I know and but we've never really talked about it.

 This may vary by publisher, but one of the things I think was really successful for me, in working with a publisher is that they provide, it's not just an editor, it's a development editor. Like a thing that you learn is there's different kinds of editors and we as sort of laypersons.

We think that's copy editing, fixing grammar and typos. But the development editors, the person that helps you shape the narrative arc of the book and helps you find your voice. And just a very tactical example, when I was writing interviewing users, I was writing a lot of, I like to do this, I do this, I had this experience.

So if I find myself in this situation, I do that. and the editor really pushed me. Marta really pushed me. You know, you have to tell people what to do when you are in the situation, you should do that. and it's a grammatically, it's a simple thing, but it's a completely different [01:04:00] mind shift in what's your role as the writer to bring value to the reader.

and the expertise of a development editor to tell you here's how books are written. Here's what they contain, here's how you vary. The examples. I can do Tapie tap with words, but I don't know what a book consists of. and so to get that kind of guidance while you're writing, 'cause I think some people will produce a whole manuscript and then be like, alright, how do I get it published?

Well, these are things that would be good to know as you go. It's not to say that, and I think Justin was getting at this, there are lots of people that are available to hire to do that, but you have to know that exists, that's the kind of help that you can get, as opposed to finish something, getting it copy edited and then, put into a template and published.

So learning what that journey looks like and what those collaborations can be. you don't know what you don't know until you go through it a little bit.

Their advice to consultants that are considering writing a book

Kyle Soucy: And what advice would you both have [01:05:00] for, any consultants that are considering writing as a way to support their consulting work?

Justin Dauer: I would say give yourself time. for certain,both books, just writing proper probably took me 10 months and then another two months to, for layout design editor working in parallel, et cetera. and also you have to be as humble as humanly possible. I will never forget the first time I got my book back from my editor, and it's just a sea of red.

Everything crossed out, entire thoughts that I thought were, strokes of brilliance being wiped out. so you really have to maintain humility, be open to being challenged, particularly on something that, you know, we say, you know, designed is aligned to business goals and outcomes. It's not like fine arts, that's bs.

I'm still investing myself in it, even though it's aligned to the business and outcomes and is a product in many ways. I'm still investing myself in it. And I think, I've put a lot of good work into whatever X is. so to get something back that [01:06:00] is completely a bloodbath, that, that was a shock to the system.

So I appreciate the first time at app and I was able to, yeah,surf a, a good way from there. But, yeah, stay as humble as humanly possible because you'll need it.

Steve Portigal: I'll add, there are, just think about what your goals or desired outcomes might be. 'cause there's a lot of them. Um,Justin alluded to margins. I don't think most people don't make a lot of money writing a book. And certainly if you think about the time that you've put in, it's probably a very low paying, that's a low paying 10, 12 months of effort.

but there are,we've talked about credibility or being top of mind. I think it can be that, if you're really lucky, like most books don't do really well. I happen, I've written. Two books and revised one. one of them did extremely well and I think helped define a field.

the other one not so much and I can see that 'cause I get royalty statements and I can see the sales for one versus the other. my [01:07:00] second book, I'm extremely proud of it. I think it's one of sort of the things that I've made and put into the world that I'm just very satisfied with.

And yeah, I wish it had done better and more people got on board with what I wanted them to read and think about and understand. that's, doorbells danger and dead batteries, user research, war stories available online. Um,but I'm satisfied with that. It was like a really great experience.

And, yeah, everything that I've done writing wise was hard and satisfying and, unexpected outcomes was also. I think part of the joy of, going down a career path you don't quite understand, stuff happens. You put things out there and unexpected things come back. people give you, compliments that are not,about the book or anything that you put out, that aren't tied to your business goals for doing that, but make you realize, oh wow, this has value beyond what I could have conceived.

And you'll get outcomes that you maybe wouldn't have expected. [01:08:00] but yeah, you have to want to do it and I think it's good to think about why you want to do it. And I'm not trying to say that one why is better than another, but just thinking about what outcomes you hope for. and, being prepared to be disappointed and surprised, maybe an equal measure about what kind of things happen.

Kyle Soucy: Yeah. Yeah. I think this falls into that category of that unpaid work that we, as consultants need to do to get the work. And it sounds like whatever you do to increase your brand awareness or boost your reputation, you have to be passionate about it because ultimately it's not going to be an instantaneous reward.

Right? There's a long tail effect to a lot of the things that we put out into the world.

What makes a consultant good?

Kyle Soucy: All right. So we're gonna wrap up now, which is, um, some quick fire questions here. So, I would love to know for the both of you, what makes a consultant good, top of mind.

Justin Dauer: I think it's a combination [01:09:00] of, experience, a willingness to be challenged and to grow and evolve.and just a very, Grounded expectation about what success means and,the ebb and flow of income is really something, to, to plan for and be mindful of.

Steve Portigal: Yeah, there are people that, um, those are the people you want in the room with you at whatever meeting you're gonna have. The meeting is better because those people are there. they're not always consultants, but I think they're a consultanty mindset. and those are the people I think that, They know how to step back a little bit. I'm not talking about the person that just throws a bucket of water in the whole thing, but they can, gently facilitate and intervene and redirect, manage up and manage down. I like being with those people because stuff just goes better because they see the forest and the trees at the same time and in a gentle way, say something.

So [01:10:00] they help groups resolve a tactical or strategic problem or whatever. at any level. They just say the thing that needs to be said or I go, wow, I wish I'd said that. I'm gonna try to do that a little bit. and that I think is. That's not operating a consulting business. I'm glad Justin mentioned ebb and flow of, income.

It's a really weird thing that you have to get used to. but just consultant ness or consultant ness,the material and the ether that I think makes those people really great. it's that vibe they bring into a room and how they help everybody move further

Kyle Soucy: I love that. Yeah.

The hardest thing about UX consulting for them

Kyle Soucy: And then fill in the blank, one of the hardest things about consulting is

Steve Portigal: comparison, the social comparison. yeah, I think I've been. Plagued by that. Certainly it's, I think it's not unique to me,other people doing well and boasting about it on social media, or, having a check-in call and someone saying oh, I sent out [01:11:00] nine proposals this week. like getting, going, getting to spiraling off when I hear those things, I've screwed up.

It's too late. I'm doing something wrong. I'm no good. Whatever is the negative self-talk that comes from that. 'cause I do that and then someone, like Justin says, oh, Steve is inspirational to me and I dismiss that very easily. and I get upset when someone talks about,

an overwhelming level of success. one of the things that's helped me through the downturn in consulting in UX and research and that we've talked about before is it's clearly affecting everybody. And when I can just say to myself, it's not you, Steve, that is really grounding for me.

And, I actually worry less because it's not me. but when I see other people succeeding, sorry to turn this into a therapy moment, everybody. but when I start doing that comparison thing, then I have a lot of negative [01:12:00] self-talk and it's been, yeah, I can go back to any point in my consulting career and like identify.

So regardless of my own success, I can identify how vulnerable I have been to negative self-talk around comparison.

Kyle Soucy: It's beautiful that you can share that and you are definitely not alone. And I can echo that same feeling of like, ugh, when somebody's boasting about all this work that they have and it does put you into that spiral. So I completely relate. And Justin, how about you? One of the hardest things about consulting is,

Justin Dauer: Yeah, I think Steve's answer was spot on. And I would just say, finding the one consistent client, and that could be, it's maybe not the dream client. It's maybe not, a hundred percent exactly what you wanna be doing, but it's the one where you can just rebook, renew year over year. It's the one that puts food on the table.

It's the one that pays the bills. I've [01:13:00] known other consultants, who have sustained years of practice on that, and heck, I've, and I'm sure I'm not alone here, I've known entire businesses that have been built around just having an in someplace. And, they've gotten retainers signed over and over again, or they've, secured business in another capacity.

It's just that one that takes the anxiety off, the one that cuts the need to have to constantly be chasing and, gives you a little more freedom to chase things that might be a little more aspirational that you might wanna work on. and just take that anxiety off. So I would say that finding the one.

Consistent client that, uh, you know, is a safe renew that you can do consistent good work with and free you up to do things that you might wanna also work on as well.

Kyle Soucy: Yeah, it's nice when you can have one or two of those. Yeah.

Justin Dauer: Amen? Yeah.

The most rewarding aspects of being a UX consultant for them

Kyle Soucy: And the last thing, just to end it on a positive here, what's one of the most rewarding aspects of being a UX consultant for the both of you?

Justin Dauer: for one, being able to, collaborate with folks like Steve, and really be charged by [01:14:00] what I do to be able to take ownership, from my decisions and, like I said, create environments that I'm able to work within. And by environments I can mean everything from a zoom to going on client's site to, just the energy in the room and dealing with the client.

And, I don't know. I keep saying values aligned and that, that means a lot to me because I really, I, I say design is connection made manifest. And I, I mean that beyond a bumper sticker or a t-shirt slogan, I feel like it's about connecting with people, connecting with, and that can mean people by clients, by the end users, by the folks I'm collaborating with.

so this means a lot more to me than, being a hashtag thought leader on social media or, just creating great outcomes. this is some something that, in my DNA I'm passionate about and it is as values aligned as humanly possible. So that's incredibly rewarding to be able to, to be able to have the buck stop with me and, and more or less determine my own fate.

Kyle Soucy: Yep.

Steve Portigal: I'm really grateful for, having been part of this community as it's changed over 20 plus [01:15:00] years and to have, long-term relationships. Kyle, you and I met like way back. I don't, I'm afraid to put a date on it, but, you know, uh, I mean, I knew you when, right. And, um, that's, that's really nice.

That's, you know, and, and that, that continues to grow. all these years in Justin and I are trying something new that is like scary and exciting. So to, you gotta be part of a community, I think, and have a network and have these relationships over time to keep growing and having new things come your way.and I'll say in the work itself, and I mentioned this earlier, I think there is that point of figuring something out new, that you're gonna bring back that I think is joyful. seeing somebody else get it or start to get it, seeing them light up and hearing them use your language that you've given them.

You've gifted them some language to describe something they couldn't previously describe, and to see them light up and start [01:16:00] to start talking about how they are gonna take action. so you're pushing some things forward and then it starts to go on its own. that's very exciting and it's very rewarding.

and is elusive. I think, if the more transactional the work is, the more they take delivery of a document, and prioritize a set of things, but don't start changing and evolving and, acting in a way that's empowered. So I think it is elusive somewhat to see that really exciting thing happen.

But that's the dream, right? that's why this work feels valuable to me and why I want to keep doing it.

And we're so glad you are.this has been fantastic. Thank you so much, both of you for joining me today for this chat. how can listeners follow you and stay tuned in to what you're both doing? You can find me in two places. we've mentioned LinkedIn. when you know LinkedIn, I think we've mentioned it in a kind of a plus and minus way. But yeah, LinkedIn is a great way to, [01:17:00] find me and people are welcome to connect with me there. and my website for my own practice is, portable.com. and you can read more about what I do there.

Justin Dauer: Yeah, and for my part, LinkedIn as well, is effective. I'm very findable there. my website for my agency slash consultancy is Anomali with an i by design.com. And then for Steve and I, our respective collaborative offering, it's Anomali by design.com/steve+justin.

Kyle Soucy: I will include links to all of them in the show notes. Thank you again. This has been awesome. I really appreciate it.

Steve Portigal: Thank

Justin Dauer: Thank you, Kyle. You

Steve Portigal: Thank you

Kyle Soucy: All right. Take care.

Justin Dauer: you too.

Kyle Soucy: All right. That wraps up this episode. Thanks for joining me. So do you have a topic or a question that you would like us to explore on a future episode of the UX consultants lounge? Perhaps there's an anonymous consulting [01:18:00] story you want to submit.

If so, click on the link in the show notes to submit your story or question from the podcast website. Until next time, keep that consultancy going. I can't wait to have you back in the lounge for our next episode.

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